Hypertrophy

The Hypertrophy Specialist I'll admit it, before last month I'd never heard of Brad Schoenfeld.It appears he's certainly been around the fitness block. He's published numerous books, appeared on numerous television shows, owns his own personal training facility, is an adjunct professor, and has earned multiple degrees and certifications. Still, I didn't know he existed. That was before I read his October 2010 article in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research entitled, The Mechanisms of Muscle Hypertrophy and Their Application to Resistance Training . This was quite simply the most comprehensive and succinct article on hypertrophy training I've ever read. If you're interested in hypertrophy and don't mind immersing yourself in some highlevel science, then I suggest you find a way to access this article. Anyhow, I was intrigued enough to contact Brad and ask him some questions about training for muscular growth. Forgive me if some of this stuff is a little too science-geeky, especially in the first part of the article, but that's what happened when two hypertrophy geeks get together. BC: Thanks for agreeing to do this interview, Brad. I'm curious as to how you found the time to compile all of the research that went into your article...was this just something you whipped up on a whim, or was it a work in progress over a period of many years? BS: My pleasure, Bret. The research review on the mechanisms of muscle hypertrophy was the culmination of many years of studying and analyzing thousands of research studies on the subject. I'm a self-professed research geek--I spend upwards of about 2 hours a day poring over research on exercise and nutrition, primarily as it relates to body composition. Muscle hypertrophy, in particular, is a topic that is of primary interest to me. I've been a competitive natural bodybuilder myself, and have worked with many high-level physique athletes at the national and professional level. Unfortunately, most physique athletes train very unscientifically. Their training is based on gym lore and mythology, leading to substandard results. It's therefore very rewarding for me to contribute to the body of literature on the topic and hopefully foster a greater attention to scientific training for hypertrophy. BC: Well you did a great job. Let's plow right in. What are the different ways a muscle grows, and what are the primary methods of causing muscles to grow? BS: There are two basic types of hypertrophy, contractile hypertrophy and non-contractile hypertrophy (i.e. sarcoplasmic hypertrophy). Contractile hypertrophy can manifest as either addition of sarcomeres in series or in parallel. In-series hypertrophy is not thought to significantly contribute to hypertrophy in typical training protocols (it's primarily seen after immobilization in a cast, or when persistently exercising at an incline on a treadmill), meaning that adding sarcomeres in parallel is the primary mechanism of contractile hypertrophy for those who lift weights. [Editor's note: In layman's terms, in-series hypertrophy refers to muscles growing by actually getting longer, like adding segments to a rope. For instance, if you were to hyperextend a limb and place a cast on it to hold it in that position, the stretched muscle would actually grow longer by adding additional sarcomeres. On the other hand, in-parallel growth means exactly that, sarcomeres being added next to each other like sardines being added to a tin.] Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, on the other hand, is an increase in non-contractile elements within a muscle (collagen, glycogen, etc.). One of my mentors, the late Mel Siff, introduced me to the concept of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy years ago and there's a good deal of research supporting its presence. While sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is often called "non-functional," this actually may not be the case. There's evidence that the increased hydration of the cell associated with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy may mediate a hypertrophic response, thus leading to subsequent increases in contractile hypertrophy. [Editor's note: Hydration can cause cell growth because, as the liquid exerts pressure against the cell wall, it's perceived as a threat to cellular integrity and the cell responds by reinforcing it's structure, i.e., growth. This is one of the mechanisms by which creatine is thought to work, as it increases a cell's fluid volume, which may then promote cell growth.] On the other hand, there's little research substantiating that hyperplasia (i.e. splitting of muscle fibers) contributes significantly to hypertrophy in humans. Research shows three primary methods by which resistance training causes hypertrophy: mechanical tension, muscle damage, and metabolic stress. Each of these factors mediates various processes that ultimately act on myogenic pathways to either increase protein synthesis and/or decrease protein breakdown. Moreover, there's evidence that these factors can have an additive effect on hypertrophy when combined in proper context. BC: When we look at bodybuilders versus powerlifters, how do the muscular adaptations differ between the two types of training? BS: While both bodybuilders and powerlifters tend to display impressive muscularity, the bodybuilders traditionally show the greatest hypertrophy. Studies show that at least some of the increased hypertrophy in bodybuilders is due to an increase in noncontractile elements, presumably due to differences in training methodology. However, as previously noted, the increased sarcoplasmic hypertrophy may ultimately lead to greater increases in contractile hypertrophy. BC: Please talk briefly about mechanical tension and metabolic stress. Should our goal be to maximize one or the other during a workout or to achieve a proper blend of the two stimuli? BS: Simply stated, mechanical tension is the amount of tension developed by muscle fibers in response to a stimulus. This tension can be developed either by static or dynamic muscle activity (i.e., traditional resistance training), or by chronic stretch. It is believed that mechanically induced tension disturbs the integrity of skeletal muscle, causing mechano-chemically transduced molecular and cellular responses in myofibers and satellite cells. Alternatively, metabolic stress results from the buildup of various metabolites (e.g., lactate, hydrogen ion, inorganic phosphate, creatine, etc.), and is generally maximized by anaerobic glycolysis as well as muscle ischemia. Based on the body of available research as well as years of personal data working with physique athletes, I believe there is a threshold of mechanical tension that needs to be reached during training to elicit muscular gains. Beyond this threshold, metabolic stress becomes increasingly important to maximizing the hypertrophic response. I should also point out that muscle damage is a part of the puzzle here. Specifically, damage to myofibers generates an acute inflammatory response that has been shown to mediate hypertrophic processes, including the release of various growth factors that regulate satellite cell proliferation and differentiation. Given that muscle damage is brought about primarily by eccentric exercise, this reinforces the need to emphasize the eccentric portion of each lift. BC: What are the primary "anabolic" hormones in the body that we should be trying to maximize in our training? BS: The two primary anabolic hormones are IGF-1 and Testosterone. I'm sure everyone knows about the anabolic properties of Testosterone. Interestingly, significant correlations have been found between training-induced elevations in Testosterone and muscle cross sectional area. This suggests that in addition to the importance of chronically elevated Testosterone levels, acute, exercise-induced elevations in Testosterone may also play an important role in muscle hypertrophy. IGF-1 is a peptide hormone with structural similarities to insulin. One of the isoforms of IGF-1, called mechano growth factor (MGF), is preferentially upregulated in response to mechanical signaling and therefore appears to be particularly important to the growth process. IGF-1 has been shown to induce hypertrophy in both an autocrine and paracrine manner, and exerts its effects directly by increasing the rate of protein synthesis in differentiated myofibers as well as through mediating the proliferation and differentiation of satellite cells. Growth hormone (GH) also seems to play a role in hypertrophy, although its mechanisms are less clear than either IGF-1 or Testosterone. Research suggests that GH is primarily involved in the hypertrophic response in a secondary fashion, seemingly by mediating IGF-1 production. Some people dismiss the hypertrophic role of GH based on studies using exogenous GH injections. However, these protocols do not replicate the large spikes in GH seen post-exercise, nor do they take into account the time course of GH elevation in conjunction with myotrauma. Moreover, over 100 molecular isoforms of GH have been identified, yet the vast majority of this research has been carried out solely on one isoform, the 22 kDa isoform. BC: Many strength coaches hate on "pumping" training, saying that there is no evidence that trying to achieve a pump leads to increases in hypertrophy. Are these coaches correct? BS: Before answering the question, it's important to look at the etiology of the muscle "pump." Basically, the pump is caused by a buildup of fluid within the cell, facilitated by the accumulation of metabolic byproducts, which function as osmolytes. [Editor's note: Osmolytes are organic compounds that maintain cell volume and fluid balance.] That said. It's a central tenet of exercise and is by all accounts. cell swelling) can mediate hypertrophy both by increasing protein synthesis and decreasing proteolysis. Any training protocol. IGF-1.] BS: I've heard the term "irrational hypertrophy" mentioned in terms of cells lacking the energy systems required to support synthesis and maintenance of new muscle proteins.. no doubt that drug-assisted bodybuilders achieve significant training advantages compared to natural physique athletes. decreases catabolic processes. Satellite cell activity is purported to be the primary mechanism regulating myonuclear domain.e. and insulin. BC: On a personal note. Conceivably an inability to increase myonuclei could result in "irrational hypertrophy" and it's possible that training methodology could play a role in the process. what is it? [Yet another editor's note: Irrational hypertrophy is the concept that muscle growth simply can't occur when the cell lacks sufficient resources. BC: Does this mean that we should solely seek "da pump" during our workouts or should we also be thinking about setting PR's and progressive overload? BS: I certainly wouldn't say that we should "solely" seek a pump during training. as satellite cells donate nuclei to the muscle fiber. of course. must have progressive overload to bring about adaptation. Taking exogenous anabolic hormones drives muscle protein synthesis. Many bodybuilders hit their muscle groups one time per week and achieve great results.Studies show that intracellular hydration (i. I've noticed that natural lifters seem to need to hit the muscle groups more frequently than one time per week for optimal hypertrophic results. the cell swelling effect of a muscle pump would seem to provide an additive effect to the hypertrophic response and this role should not be dismissed. There is evidence to support the concept of a myonuclear domain. which proposes that the myonucleus regulates mRNA production for a finite sarcoplasmic volume and that any increases in fiber size must be accompanied by a proportional increase in myonuclei (either in size or number of myonuclei). Thus. and accomplishing this balance requires a delicate balance of manipulating training variables within one's abilities. BC: Is there such thing as "Irrational Hypertrophy. Do you believe that natural bodybuilders should train differently than drug-assisted bodybuilders? BS: There is. there is a physiologic basis by which the pump may augment hypertrophy and it would be imprudent to dismiss this potential role. lack of protein. but this is generally not a limiting factor in hypertrophic training protocols. . Natural lifters must be much more cognizant of optimizing training volume without bringing about overtraining. or lack of some intermediate metabolic chemical. These resources could simply be lack of calories. immutable." and if so. human growth hormone. and fosters greater recovery allowing for a much greater volume and frequency of training. but they're taking exogenous anabolic steroids. including those targeting hypertrophy. with periods of unloading interspersed throughout the training cycle to minimize overtraining potential. That said." which is in itself a form of periodization that relies on biofeedback. deadlifts. Should I just focus on getting stronger at heavy lower body lifts such as squats. Training for each muscle group varies between one to two times per week. It has been validated by research and I've used it very successfully over the years in hypertrophy programs. Employing single joint movements allows one to enhance muscle development in otherwise "underworked" muscles while also improving muscular symmetry (which is as important for physique athletes as overall muscular size. it can potentially result in trainees adopting a "psychologically lazy" training approach. causing imbalanced growth. adjust training intensity on a particular day based on subjective feelings. certain muscles will dominate over others. and I know Mel considered this a very important topic. periodization in itself doesn't preclude instinctive aspects. There is actually a growing body of research supporting the use of "flexible nonlinear periodization" where subjects are allowed to selfselect training intensities based on how they feel on a particular training day. single joint movements do allow for better targeting of individual muscles and thus can be an important part of a hypertrophy-oriented routine. I've achieved greatest success both personally and with high-level physique athletes using a periodized approach that alternates training frequency over the course of a 12-week mesocycle. if necessary. so they certainly should be staples in any training routine. or body part split routines? . pushing and pulling workouts. at least on an ongoing basis. and presses will activate the greatest amount of muscle mass. BC: Let's say I want my legs to grow as large as humanly possible. and leg press. BC: Many bodybuilders utilize Joe Weider's "Instinctive Principle. I would counter that most hard-training athletes can and should adhere to a structured periodized protocol and only need to make adjustments occasionally during the course of a mesocycle. Mel Siff called this "auto-regulation" and described it as "Cybernetic Periodization.I don't necessarily agree that natural lifters need to work specific muscles more than once a week. if not more so). Realize that during multi-joint movement training. however. At least that's been my experience with high-level physique competitors. or that most should ditch the periodization schemes and learn how to listen to their bodies and train accordingly? BS: I'm a big proponent of periodization for achieving any exercise-related goal. However." Do you believe that most bodybuilders and powerlifters should stick to a set periodized routine and stick to the formula. or should I incorporate isolation movements such as leg extensions and leg curls? BS: Multi-joint movements such as squats. Anecdotally. BC: Does there seem to be an optimal split in terms of maximizing strength and hypertrophy? Should we be performing full body workouts. lower body and upper body split workouts. But while I do think it's important to listen to your body and. rows. The best we can seek to do is to "target" a particular muscle or portion of a muscle to a greater degree vis a vis another muscle. Realize that the sternal head of the pectorals are heavily involved in shoulder adduction movements (such as lat pulldowns). there is really no such thing as "isolation" in resistance training. Specifically. Recent research shows that when performing multi-set routines. multi-angled approach to hypertrophy training utilizing a variety of different exercises over the course of periodized program. A split routine has been shown to afford the ability to maintain total weekly training volume with fewer sets performed per training session and greater recovery afforded between sessions. gracilis. studies show that certain muscles are divided into neuromuscular components—distinct regions of muscle each of which is innervated by its own nerve branch—which potentially can be activated by utilizing different exercises and/or variations of exercises. The sartorius. are all subdivided by one or more fibrous bands or inscriptions. for example. however.BS: There is a good deal of science behind using split routines in a hypertrophy training protocol. middle. Thus. for example the outer pecs or lower lats. with each compartment innervated by separate nerve branches. Is this possible or just wishful thinking? Does a comprehensive hypertrophy program focus mostly on the basics or does it include a wide variety of exercises with various vectors and positions of maximal tension? BS: First. The bottom line is that these architectural variances of muscle warrant the need to adopt a multi-planar. greater than 72 hours may be necessary before training the same muscle group to allow for sufficient muscle repair. medial. The most common application of this concept is with muscles that have different attachment sites. the short head of the biceps are heavily involved in chest flys. Examples include the trapezius (which is divided into upper. and posterior heads). the triceps synergists in shoulder presses. in series fibers that terminate intrafascicularly. The primary consideration here is to make sure to avoid working the same muscle group when training on successive days as this can impair muscular repair. I don't believe there is an "optimal" split. which refutes the belief that muscle fibers always span the entire origin to insertion. BC: Let's say I want to isolate a certain part of a muscle. biceps femoris and semitendinosus. The human body simply doesn't work in a way that allows us to focus solely on one muscle without activating other synergists and stabilizers. applied anatomy should be a prime consideration when devising a hypertrophic routine. both the gracilis and sartorius are composed of relatively short. Based on my experience it's best to vary the split over the course of a periodized program. You must pay heed to these kinesiological facts to avoid short-changing the recuperative process and thus impairing muscular gains. Now this isn't as simple as it sounds. rectus abdominis. there also are regional differences within various muscles that can impact their response to exercise choice. . However. etc. Many different combinations can and do work very well. and lower regions) and the deltoids (which have anterior. Interestingly. . pelvis and humerus). scapula. the lat fibers are arranged in different directions. . A periodized mesocycle of lower rep sets will help to afford the use of heavier weights during moderate rep training. I've had excellent success utilizing a step-loading protocol where intensity is systematically increased with this rep range over the course of a mesocycle.As to the examples you cited. a moderate rep range (65% to 85% of 1RM) seems to be ideal for maximizing the hypertrophic response. BS: Based on the majority of literature and the physiological basis of hypertrophy training. on the other hand. at the spine. facilitating a better ability to train through lactate buildup and thus increase the extent of metabolic stress during training. Now this shouldn't be interpreted to mean that an individual whose goal is to maximize hypertrophy should solely train in a moderate rep range. followed by a one week unloading cycle of low intensity training. potentially allowing for greater muscular development of that muscle. With respect to machines. can be targeted to some degree given that the fibers of the lats have multiple attachment sites (i.e. to almost parallel with the body in the lower region. Thus. the upper lats receive greater stress when performing wider grip pulldowns while the lower lat fibers are stressed more during closer grip pulldowns. And employing a mesocycle of higher rep sets can facilitate increasing the lactate threshold. it would be wishful thinking to attempt to target the outer pecs since the fiber composition of the pectoralis major simply doesn't afford this ability. there is greater stress on the target muscle when training on a machine. Now it's important to point out that the synergists and stabilizers substantially contribute to muscular hypertrophy. BC: Does there appear to be an optimal rep range for maximum hypertrophy? Is this range uniform depending on the muscle/muscle group? Many bodybuilders swear by higher rep ranges for the lower body. This rep range allows for the use of weights that result in significant mechanical tension while also potentiating sufficient muscle damage and metabolic stress to augment myogenesis. they have a hypertrophic advantage over free weights in that they allow a lifter greater ability to target specific muscles. thereby increasing mechanical tension during the hypertrophy phase of training. Since muscles are maximally stressed when an exercise moves directly in line with its fibers. from almost perpendicular at the upper region. Because of these multiple attachments. BC: Are machines useful in the development of hypertrophy? What could a machine possibly do that a free weight exercise couldn't? BS: Both machines and free weight movements have a place in a hypertrophy-oriented routine as they complement each other in terms of their strengths and weaknesses. Free weight exercises involve the contribution of a significant number of synergists and stabilizer muscles that do not come into play when using machines. The lower lats. so a combination of both modalities is important to maximize the hypertrophic response. You can also gain muscle size by "non-functional. There is compelling evidence that persistent training to failure over time can lead to overtraining and thereby impair results. This allows a lifter sufficient recuperation time to recover most of his/her strength for maintaining a high degree of mechanical tension. which is kind of like adding sardines to a tin." or saracoplasmic hypertrophy. there's evidence to suggest that adding non-contractile elements to the cell actually stresses the cell out. I've never met anyone who can't improve on their physique if they embrace scientific training principles. Of the two. basing specifics on individual response over time. two minutes. like weight lifting (duh!). 2. Muscle responds to mechanical stress. sort of like adding additional stuffing to a sofa cushion. and the answer to this is less clear. You can add muscle cells in series. BC: Last question Brad. it enhances the body's anabolic environment via increased metabolic stress and hypoxia. sending it signals to grow. a minute. However. Most bodybuilders have intuitively realized this and employ training to failure as an integral part of their routines. and creatine. Given that the threshold for overtraining is dependent on multiple factors and varies from person to person. heightening the potential for increased muscular growth. what is something that will inspire me for my workout later on today? Thanks again for taking the time to conduct this interview. . and other non-contractile "materials" that fluff up the cell. BS: The best inspiration that I can give is that if you adopt a scientific approach to increasing muscle mass. Shorter rest intervals comprise mechanical tension while longer intervals don't generate much in the way of metabolic stress. hydrogen ions. sort of like adding segments to a rope. all of which are thought to spur the muscle cell to grow further. it is difficult to give a general recommendation on the subject.BC: What about rest time in between sets? Should we wait 30 seconds. BC: Do we need to go to failure on all of our sets or at least some of our sets? BS: The evidence seems to suggest that training to failure is a necessary part of optimizing hypertrophy. In addition. glycogen. Here is where being in tune with one's body is extremely important to optimize a hypertrophy-oriented protocol. and also metabolic stress. This metabolic stress refers to the build up of various metabolites like lactate. SEE THEM: 1. 3. This refers to things like collagen. THE EDITORS. AS WE. or in parallel. fluid. or five minutes before performing the next set of an exercise? BS: A moderate rest interval of about one to two minutes between sets appears to be ideal for maximizing hypertrophy. you can push past plateaus and optimize your genetic potential. TAKE HOME POINTS. in parallel is the primary way in which you build muscle. Now the question then becomes how often should one go to failure. My best advice here is to periodize and/or limit the number of sets that are taken to failure. But it's still interesting to understand the factors that can contribute to making your muscles grow. actual muscle damage seems to lead to more muscle growth. the fewer swings you can take at your opponent.). deadlifts. It's impossible to effectively throw 60 uppercuts in one round of boxing. rows. 10. More force equals great intramuscular tension. the pump is good. In other words. stimulating muscle growth is easy: just lift the damn weight! This will work as long as you're progressively increasing the demand placed on the muscle over time (either by adding more weight. Multi-joint movements like squats. free weights have the most bang for your training buck. but machine training is well-suited for targeting specific muscles. . Brad reports that a rest interval of about 1. while making periodic adjustments as needed. In that regard. it means that muscles should be worked across a wide range of angles and planes. Stimulate More Muscle Growth by Christian Thibaudeau On the surface. or lowering part of the exercise rep that causes the most damage. given that certain muscles are innervated by different nerve branches.2 minutes is optimal for maximizing hypertrophy. 7. There is no such thing as "isolation" training. Most research shows that working within a range of 65% to 85% of 1RM builds the most muscle. but why? Here are the main factors contributing to stimulating growth: 1) Intramuscular Tension: This refers to how hard a muscle must be contracted during the performance of an exercise. the more you put into a punch. the human body doesn't work that way. the more damage it'll do. We know that lifting weights builds muscle. but it is possible to throw that many jabs. and this hydration may spur the muscle cell to additional growth. etc. 6. 5. doing more sets. However. and it's the eccentric. The coveted "pump" is actually caused by intracellular hydration. and presses build the most muscle mass. see tension as a punch: the harder you punch someone. Furthermore. Periodized training. As such. doing more reps at a given weight. 8. where the non drug-aided trainee works each muscle group once or twice a week. As we all know. but targeted training of individual muscles is also an important part of achieving overall symmetry. 9. However. A high level of intramuscular tension can influence muscle growth because it leads to a high rate of protein degradation (more tension = faster muscle damage). at least as far as Brad's personal experience has shown. increasing density. it's directly correlated with the amount of force you have to produce.4. seems to work the best. high tension will stimulate muscle growth. you're actually not causing a lot of damage per second. you won't be able to do the set under a lot of tension. a long time under tension is kinda' like hitting your opponent 60-80 times in a round. the time spent causing muscle damage is more important and thus can lead to more growth stimulation. which has been shown to create a deprived oxygen state (since blood flow to the muscle is limited. Studies have shown that despite the light weights being used. The lack of oxygen (hypoxic state) and increase in acidity has also been shown to increase the recruitment of fast-twitch muscle fibers (Shinohara and Moritani. But still. the less time you can sustain that tension. 3) Blood Vessel Occlusion. In fact. So while you might spend a lot of seconds working at causing muscle damage. 2000). 2) Time Under Tension: If a high intramuscular tension represents an uppercut. but only if the tension level stays relatively high. the more HTMUs you'll recruit. oxygen restriction to the muscle increases fast-twitch recruitment. and spike amplitude (Yasuda. The reason is the blood occlusion. the muscle growth response is as big as lifting heavy weights (80% and more). You can bitch-slap an opponent a thousand times. Metabolite Accumulation.It's the same thing with weights: the more tension you produce. so is oxygen transport). the more potential damage you can cause. If a set lasts longer. It also has another interesting impact: the recruitment of the high-threshold motor units (fast-twitch fibers). So while a high level of tension will cause rapid muscle damage. The problem is that there's an inverse relationship between the magnitude of the tension and the time that it can be sustained: if you shoot for a very long set. 1992). 1-3 maximal reps) the time spent causing damage to the muscle might not be long enough to elicit a maximal growth response. The more often you hit your adversary.g. but it won't knock him out! Just like with tension — increasing the time under tension of a set will lead to more growth stimulation. . firing rate. This leads to an accumulation of lactate which increases the production of both hGH (growth hormone) and IGF-1 (Takareda et al. if it's too high (e. Hormonal Output: You might have heard of "kaatsu" or tourniquet training. 2005). It's a training method that relies on lifting light weights (20-30% of your maximum for 15-30 reps) while wearing a special cuff that's tightened up around the proximal end of a limb to restrict blood flow to the muscle. The more force (tension) you produce. You could take advantage of all three methods by designing your program according to this template: Exercise 1: Heavy lift (4-6 reps) using a basic. and IGF-1 levels were also the same as with kaatsu training. but using a 303 tempo and never allowing the muscles to relax during the set (always flexing as hard as possible during every inch of every rep) with 50-60% of the maximum performed to failure. You can never allow the muscle to relax. 3.Finally. However. heavy training — a difference that can explain the efficacy of kaatsu training. multi-joint exercise Exercise 2: Moderate rep movement (8-10) using another multi-joint exercise Exercise 3: High rep movement (12-15) using a secondary exercise Exercise 4: Constant tension movement (303 tempo. Mitchell et al. Lactate. Relatively high reps (up to 12-15 for the upper body and 15-20 for the lower body). if the muscle is allowed to relax during the set. which promote a high mechanical degradation due to the combination of moderate time under tension and intramuscular tension magnitude. oxygen levels were at around 22% of the rested/normal state. A recent study compared several training protocols' effects on oxygen levels during the execution of an exercise. Heavy lifting (4-6 reps). 1980). 2. 50-60% of maximum. The moral of the story is that constant tension exercises can build size and strength despite using relatively light weights and even if muscle damage is fairly low. With kaatsu training. The good news is that you don't have to use kaatsu training (which can be risky) to create this oxygen/blood flow restriction to the muscle. which increase muscle satellite cell activation and proliferation (two key phenomenon involved in the muscle growth process). This means no rest between reps either. they also found that performing sets without blocking blood flow. 1975. Decline bench press 4-5 x 4-6 reps 90-120 seconds of rest . we could say that muscle growth can be stimulated by: 1. Constant tension sets. This method is best kept for isolation exercises. hGH. oxygen and blood will flow into the muscle and you won't reach optimal benefits. However. Sustained muscle tension (as in never allowing a muscle to relax during a set) can make muscle hypoxic even without external occlusion (Bonde-Peteron et al. you must flex the target muscle hard during every inch of every rep. So. led to oxygen levels of 23-24%. 8-12 reps) using an isolation exercise A chest workout might look something like this: A. exercise with restricted oxygen/blood entry in the trained muscle also leads to the production of Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS). which promotes a high rate of mechanical damage/protein degradation. compared to 32-35% for normal. To do these properly. B. that it often resists our best efforts to prod it into growth. and varying strategies will win the battle and the war. Squeeze press (pressing the dumbbells together as you simultaneously lift them) 3 x 8-12 using a 303 tempo 45 seconds of rest Conclusion It's clear that muscle is stubborn. but perseverance. Cable crossover or lying crossover 3 x 12-15 reps 60 seconds of rest D. Incline dumbbell press 3 x 8-10 reps 75 seconds of rest C. a little smarts. . In essence. his extreme influence in the way gym-goers around the world train can't be denied. this strategy has been termed "autoregulatory training" and researchers have evaluated its applicability in various flexible periodization models. 1. those who were allowed to train instinctively increased leg press strength by 62 kg compared to only a 16 kg increase in the control group.6 Lessons Learned From the Master Blaster by Bret Contreras and Brad Schoenfeld – 8/14/2012 Joe Weider. it turns out that many have solid research to back up their use. you use a combination of experience and "instinct" to guide your day-to-day workouts. In scientific circles. and 20RM) twice a week. 15RM. nutrition. At the end of the 12-week training period. .k. Joe popularized The Weider Principles. In a recent study (McNamara et al. except one group performed the routine in a regimented fashion while the other group was allowed to choose when to perform the given workouts based on how they felt. "The Master Blaster. stress. Emerging research seems to support an instinctive training approach. love him or hate him. While these principles are often dismissed as bro-science.a. and aches and pains can significantly affect your ability to train at peak levels on a daily basis. 2010). All the participants performed the same volume of training and the same rep max schemes (10RM. Instinctive Training The Instinctive Training Principle dictates that training intensity should be based on how you feel during a given session.. sixteen beginner weight-training subjects were divided into two resistance training groups." remains one of the more controversial figures in the bodybuilding and fitness realm. Here are six of our favorites. Still. relationship issues. a. This helps address the fact that outside influences such as sleep patterns. a compilation of guidelines and methods to help bodybuilders achieve their maximal potential. these factors are believed to enhance muscular growth through various mechanisms including increased fiber recruitment. There's evidence that the hypoxic effect mediates a hypertrophic response. impeding both inflow and outflow during exercise and creating a hypoxic intramuscular environment. This only comes with dedicated training experience. The true benefit behind this principle probably has less to do with reduced momentum and more to do with an acute restriction of circulation to the working muscles. instinctive training is generally better suited to more advanced lifters. alterations in myokines. Namely. conceivably by the buildup of metabolites and reduction in pH levels associated with such training.Now.. make sure to include regular unloading cycles throughout your training program. research supports that lifting under conditions of continuous tension can provide a potent stimulus for muscular hypertrophy. even when relatively light loads are used (Tanimoto et al. physical. So be honest with yourself. The flexible nature of the strategy provides a ready-made excuse to take things easy. even if you're feeling good. By avoiding the top range of motion during certain movements. 2. unless you're highly motivated to train. On the other hand. Maintaining continuous tension can be achieved in several ways:    By avoiding rest periods at the top or bottom of a movement. Remember that the body needs adequate recuperation to regenerate its resources. despite these impressive results on novice subjects. and/or cell swelling (the pump). you must be highly in tune with your mental. Otherwise. you'll rapidly become overtrained and progress will ultimately hit a wall. A beginner simply isn't skilled enough in the nuances of training to accurately gauge his daily capacity for peak performance. and emotional state and how these factors affect training capacity. In combination. then a more traditional periodization program might be a better option. production of reactive oxygen species. Continuous Tension The Continuous Tension Principle states that muscles respond favorably when they're placed under continuous tension with no resting phases during the repetition. acute elevations in anabolic hormones. which can lead to substandard results. As it turns out. Repetitive muscular contractions cause a compression of blood vessels. If you're the type that needs regimentation to keep you on the straight and narrow. To achieve optimal benefits. So regardless of subjective feelings. . It's also important to understand that instinctive training has a downside. characterized by decreased muscle activation). 2008). By minimizing momentum (excessive momentum can cause a considerable deceleration phase at the top of a movement. it becomes tempting to give into laziness. you can't take this to the other extreme and think it's okay to push through anything short of a broken bone. and certain types of curls and triceps extensions. prioritize that weak link by hitting it right off the bat. focus on keeping continuous tension on the muscle.. Think of a piston continuously moving up and down with no built-in rest periods – that's what you want your reps to look like. and make sure you go deep and lockout (use a full range of motion). don't be afraid to limit range of motion. For many exercises. consider using the continuous tension principle. partial reps that only rise two-thirds of the way up may be ideal for these movements as it allows for more consistent tension on the muscles. When performing movements such as chest flies. by all means perform calf raises at the onset. the top of a chest fly or dumbbell pullover fails to place adequate tension on the targeted musculature. if your legs look like upside down bowling pins. and chin-ups. researchers concluded that. Although this principle runs counter to the commonly held notion that large muscle groups should be trained before smaller muscle groups. using good form. and some hit their rear delts before heavy overhead pressing on their shoulder days. Many bodybuilders perform an incline movement first during every chest workout. Therefore. don't hesitate to start off your workout with some curls. 3. take advantage of increased momentum when appropriate. Studies consistently show that strength gains in exercises performed early in a workout are significantly greater than those performed at the end of the routine (Simao et al. hip thrusts. 2012). If you possess a noticeable strength or muscle discrepancy. bench presses. For example. In a recent review of the topic. Weider reasoned that since energy levels and mental focus are highest at this time. Bottom line: if your biceps lag behind your triceps. 2010). When performing the big basic lifts such as squats. Go ahead and rest at the top or bottom of the movement if need-be. . Dias et al. regardless of whether they involve large or small muscle group movements (Simão et al. another Weider principle known as the Partial Rep Principle merges well with the continuous principle as some movements lead to a complete drop-off of joint torque and muscle activation in the targeted region. Don't blindly stick to the "heaviest compound movement first" mantra if you have a glaring imbalance. 2010. deadlifts. prioritizing training allows the use of greater intensity and effort on the muscles that need it most. focus on lifting big weights. pullovers. for more targeted movements.Here's our take. it's beneficial to structure exercise order based on the muscles in greatest need of improvement. Muscle Priority The Muscle Priority Principle maintains that you should work your weak points first in a workout. However. recent research seems to support Weider's hypothesis. Don't rely on momentum.. and setting PR's. and simply squeeze your muscles against resistance. given the magnitude of strength decrements over the course of a workout. . The upshot: better muscular development. basic lifts. which aid in muscular repair as well as donating additional nuclei to fibers so more muscle proteins can be synthesized. 5. Ritz et al. In other words. Every good lifter intuitively learns how to pump up their muscles. which are growth factors that exert acute anabolic effects locally within muscle. Flushing The Flushing Principle entails training a muscle group with multiple exercises in a session. Performing a variety of different movements staves off the repeated bout effect so that these responses are maximized. followed immediately by 10 rep front raises to pump up the delts. For the glutes. Research consistently shows that a hydrated cell increases protein synthesis while attenuating protein breakdown (Haussinger et al. the body is continuously challenged by new stressors. 1997). train for the pump! It's debatable whether the enhanced nutrient delivery from flushing affects muscle remodeling. In effect. others swear by "delt-blasters" consisting of multiple tri-sets of 10 rep rear delt raises. Some like performing high-rep bottom range push-ups or dips supersetted with flies or crossovers to pump up their pecs. followed immediately by 10 rep lateral raises. once you've performed your heavy compound movement for the day.4. Progressive overload is critical. There could be a particular machine at your gym that produces some serious engorging of muscle. the associated cellular swelling from repeated bouts of reactive hyperemia very well may promote hypertrophic adaptations. Learn which methods best achieve a pump for each respective muscle group and be sure to incorporate them at the end of your workout after you've performed a couple of heavy exercises focusing on progressive overload. You want to make sure you're getting stronger over time on the big. research suggests a "sweet spot" exists whereby a moderate amount of EIMD potentiates a supercompensatory response that ultimately enhances muscular growth (Schoenfeld. and this strategy seems to be unique according to the lifter. Here's our take. It's believed that the hypertrophic effects of EIMD are mediated by various myokines. Muscle Confusion The Muscle Confusion Principle states that exercise selection should be continuously varied over time. However. thereby spurring increased growth. The idea here is to flush the working muscle with blood so that nutrient delivery is maximized to facilitate optimal remodeling of fibers. particularly if hypertrophy is your primary goal.. 1994. 2003)." While excessive tissue damage can be deleterious to training. 2012). maybe multiple sets of moderate rep hip thrusts with very short rest times do the trick. EIMD also increases the activation of satellite cells. . One problem with repeatedly performing the same routine day-in-day-out is that it impedes exercise-induced muscle damage (EIMD) by the so-called "repeated bout effect. you should definitely consider choosing some exercises that flush as much blood into the muscle as possible. Weider proposed that such an approach maximizes muscular development by not allowing the neuromuscular system to adapt to a given movement. These effects are mediated by sensors in the muscle fiber that respond to increases in cell volume by initiating anabolic processes as a means to reinforce its ultrastructure (Low et al. however. and combinations of flexion and supination target motor units in the central region (ter Haar Romeny et al. the idea is to design your program so that training is systematically carried out from different angles and planes of movement. depending on the exercise. Many online arguments have explored whether or not cheating during exercises is worthwhile. the short head displays greater muscle activity in the latter part of an arm curl (i. A combination of both mass-building multi-joint moves and targeted single-joint exercises synergistically affect symmetrical muscular development. 1993).e. cables. variety is definitely a good thing as it pertains to muscle hypertrophy! Now before you start thinking that P90X is the key to muscle-building nirvana. and it was shown that there's a sweet spot for technical form and subsequent joint torque requirements and hypertrophy stimulus during the lateral raise exercise (Arandjelović.Changing exercises also helps to ensure complete stimulation of all fibers in a given muscle. but never shy too far away from proven methods. For this reason.. Woodley & Mercer. The bottom line is that if you're not getting stronger over time at the big. For example. Many of these can be done with dumbbells too. These compartments are often innervated by separate nerve branches. 6. but make sure you're always performing variations of squats. your muscular development will likely be inferior. and presses. dumbbells. Thought should be given as to how exercises interact with one another from an applied anatomical standpoint. etc. will display greater muscle activation than others (Wickiewicz et al. greater elbow flexion) while the long head is more active in the early phase of movement (Brown et al.. rather. 1984). portions of a muscle.. supination targets motor units in the medial portion. The long and short heads of the biceps brachii. Brand new research has taken a close look at this topic. Moreover. close grip bench press. basic movement patterns.). 1993). 1983. thereby creating distinct compartments within the muscle (Heron & Richmond. barbells. display architectural subdivisions that are innervated by private branches of the primary neurons (Segal et al. as does training with multiple modalities (i.. As you can see.. You can hit the pecs from every possible angle with every exercise imaginable. and you can vary set and rep schemes as well. rack press. your muscular shape probably won't change much. The upshot is that elbow flexion targets motor units in the lateral aspect of the long head. ter Haar Romeny et al. Rather. published ahead of print). There are thousands of tweaks you can make with these lifts to "confuse" the muscles while still sticking to the best movement patterns.. 2001). floor press. understand that you can't simply string together a hodgepodge of disconnected movements for the sake of variety and expect to optimize gains. 1982. for example. deadlifts. 2005). muscles don't necessarily contract along the entire length of the fiber. the majority of muscles are subdivided by one or more fibrous bands that terminate intrafascicularly. Vary your workouts in an intelligent manner. Contrary to what some believe. use plenty of variety.. or decline press. incline press. for bench pressing variety you could perform bench press. . indicating that. Cheating The cheating principle dictates that allowing for a little bit of "English" to use slightly heavier weight or squeeze out another couple reps at the end of the set is worthwhile from a hypertrophy-training standpoint. but if you're still benching 135 pounds for 3 sets of 10.e. board press. . However. certain exercises such as barbell curls and lateral raises lend themselves well to moderate momentum. In contrast." Here's our take.According to the author: "A moderate increase in the load and the use of momentum allows the torque to be increased even further." Just don't cheat too much or you decrease the load on the target muscle and expose the body to increased risk of injury. or military presses. while an excessive increase of the load reduces the total hypertrophy stimulus by virtue of the decreased number of repetitions which can be performed successfully and thus the dramatically shortened time under tension. You don't want to cheat or use excessive momentum when performing exercises that involve inherent risk to a particular joint. or "cheating. excessive use of momentum results in lower demands on the target muscles. deadlifts. such as squats. Why Bodybuilders are More Jacked Than Powerlifters by Bret Contreras and Brad Schoenfeld – 5/24/2011 We all know that there are some freaky looking powerlifters. hoisting 855 pounds to Tom's 765 pounds. Tom Platz. Fact is. but he's not the most muscular bodybuilder. Ryan Kennelly. if you examine pictures of Stan and other powerlifting bodybuilders like Johnnie Jackson and Ben White. As of mid-2011. In 1993. Although Tom's legs were much bigger than Fred's. the first guy to squat 1. Name your favorite jacked powerlifter. But when they took some plates off the bar and decreased the weight to 525 pounds for a test of lower-body endurance. He's certainly a freak. Stan owns the highest raw powerlifting total in the world. But if they dropped down to reasonable bodyfat levels they'd likely lose a lot of muscle in the process. Fred kicked his butt in a one-rep max. Granted. powerlifters aren't as muscular as bodybuilders. and we'll show you a bodybuilder who dwarfs him in terms of muscularity. many powerlifters carry too much body fat to accurately assess their level of muscularity.000 pounds. but they're definitely not the most muscular guys on the planet. In late 2010. One of the most muscular powerlifters who consistently displays excellent conditioning is Konstantin Konstantinovs. Tom dusted Fred. That said. strongest bench press. . and strongest deadlift. but put him next to Ronnie Coleman and suddenly his muscularity isn't as impressive. you'll notice that all three of these athletes possess mediocre lower body development by bodybuilding standards. these guys are the owners of the world's strongest squat and powerlifting total. and Benedikt Magnusson. owner of perhaps the biggest wheels in bodybuilding history. For example. respectively. here are pictures of Donnie Thompson. Squat"). entered into a squatting competition with Fred Hatfield (aka "Dr. Clearly these guys are beasts. performing 23 reps compared to Fred's 11. Stan Efferding won the World's Strongest Bodybuilder competition. bodybuilders seem better at high reps with a smooth cadence. Olympia Jay Cutler wrote some very honest and forthright commentary on strength and muscular size in his Muscular Developmentcolumn in 2010. there are multiple adaptations that can boost strength without increasing muscle hypertrophy (Schoenfeld. and Tom Platz Bottom line is. Mr. He used to train with much heavier weights several years back.Fred Hatfield. and coaches believe that "muscles only know tension. these days he focuses more on quality than quantity. He listed his all-time best lifts along with his current strength. whereas powerlifters seem more adept at low reps performed explosively. In Neuromechanics of Human Movement. While he still goes heavy. trainers. What Explains the Muscular Differences Between Bodybuilders and Powerlifters? Many lifters. Many believe that the continuous quest for increased maximal strength is the key to developing massive muscles. What degree of tension? What duration of tension? What frequency of tension? What kind of tension? Certainly passive tension isn't as effective as active tension in packing on lean mass." This view is overly simplistic. Roger Enoka (Enoka. In reality. 2008) lists eight potential neurological areas for non-hypertrophy related strength gains:       Enhanced output from supraspinal centers as suggested by findings with imagined contractions Reduced coactivation of antagonist muscles Greater activation of agonist and synergist muscles Enhanced coupling of spinal interneurons that produces cross-education Changes in descending drive that reduce the bilateral deficit Shared input to motor neurons that increases motor unit synchronization . But while increased strength is definitely related to increased muscle cross sectional area (CSA). but he's more muscular now than he was back when he was much stronger. a number of factors must be taken into account. 2010). Interestingly. and bigger does not necessarily equal stronger. Along with neurological adaptations. makes bodybuilders more muscular than powerlifters? It's Not Genetics People naturally gravitate toward what they're good at. Similarly. Pennation angle. However. etc. the increased bulk provided by the non-contractile elements will nevertheless produce a tangible impact on muscle size. Non-contractile hypertrophy includes increases in collagen. basic coordination between the muscles is the single greatest contributor to non-hypertrophy related strength gains. Interestingly. sarcoplasmic hypertrophy will have no effect on your 1RM. If maximum strength were the end-all-be-all for muscular hypertrophy then powerlifters would be the biggest human beings on the planet. adaptations involving increased stiffness in the tissues that connect from bone to bone (including tendons. 2008). contrary to what some believe. stronger does not necessarily equal bigger. In the world of strength training. Since force production is generated by the sarcomeres. This may well help to explain why Tom Platz displayed greater muscular endurance than Fred Hatfield but wasn't as strong on an absolute basis. potentially due to their training methods (Ikegawa et al.) can lead to increased force transmission from muscle to bone. and play a significant role in increased strength gains. although their hypertrophic capacity is about 50% less than that of fast twitch fibers (Kosek et al. Type I fibers are endurance-oriented fibers that have limited ability to produce high levels of force (McCardle et al. What then. extracellular matrix. and other cellular subunits. Staron et al. there are multiple ways in which muscles can grow larger without significantly affecting maximal strength. The angle formed by the individual muscle fibers with a muscle's line of action significantly impacts strength irrespective of muscle hypertrophy. An increase in the size of slow-twitch Type I fibers can also affect hypertrophy without having much effect on maximal muscular strength. bodybuilders have been shown to have a greater Type 1 cross-sectional area than powerlifters (Tesch and Larsson. Type I fibers do increase in size when subjected to a resistance training stimulus. while those with a greater predisposition for size will be more inclined to become bodybuilders (or train like bodybuilders). 1999). . 2010). However. a muscle's force-generating capacity decreases (Kawakami et al. a phenomenon commonly referred to as "sarcoplasmic hypertrophy" (Siff and Verkhoshansky. 1989). studies show that bodybuilders have greater pennation angles than power lifters. 2006. increased pennation angles appear to have a negative correlation with muscle strength – as pennation angle increases.  Greater muscle activation (EMG) Heightened excitability and altered connections into motor neurons Of all of these adaptations. One such way this can occur is by an increase in non-contractile elements in the muscle cell. glycogen. and bodybuilders would employ maximal singles instead of chasing the pump. Simply put. 1982). Specifically. those with a greater predisposition for strength will be more inclined to become powerlifters (or train like a powerlifter). 1995). Obviously the sample size of professional powerlifters and bodybuilders will be skewed. the nervous system. might have a proclivity toward bodybuilding due to the larger purses and endorsement opportunities. they nearly always gain more muscle! . femur. There's also more money involved in bodybuilding. Strength is dependent on plenty of factors. symmetry. arm. who could've excelled at either. and technique refinement. this doesn't explain why bodybuilders are more muscular than powerlifters. Say you're curling a 60-pound dumbbell and you're halfway up at 90 degrees and moving very slowly. An individual like Ronnie Coleman. To figure out a general estimate of muscle force requirements of the biceps (we'll ignore the other elbow flexors for simplicity). while bodybuilding has more to do with aesthetics. Torso. Still. In this example. What happens if the individual's biceps tendon inserts 2 inches away from the fulcrum? Now you divide by 2 instead of 1.Powerlifting has more to do with leverages. Let's use a biceps curl as an example. This gives us 900 inch-pounds (a measure of torque). which means that the biceps now only has to produce 450 inch-pounds of force to hold a 60-pound dumbbell at a 90-degree elbow angle. the biceps must produce 900 inch-pounds of force. And one glaring observation is important to consider – when powerlifters start training like bodybuilders. and conditioning. This means that you multiply the resistance (60 pounds) by the resistance arm (say 15 inches from the elbow to the dumbbell) and then divide it by the muscle arm (say 1 inch from the elbow to the biceps insertion). muscularity. This demonstrates just how advantageous tendon insertions are to external force production – two guys could have equal strength in their biceps but one can lift twice the amount of weight due to advantageous leverages. you divide the moment of the resistance arm by the length of the muscle arm. and tibia lengths and proportions all play a large role in the display of strength as well. but tendon insertions play a huge role in the ability to exert maximal force. it's no comparison at all. frequencies. While everybody responds uniquely to various exercises. While mechanical tension appears to be paramount in hypertrophy stimulation. 2010). If your goal were to maximize muscle development.It's Not Chemical Assistance Layne Norton Sure. and durations. densities. you'd be a fool to ignore them. loads. The adaptations associated with these rep ranges may explain at least part of the hypertrophic differences between these two classes of athletes (Schoenfeld. insulin. . Perhaps professional bodybuilders take higher doses and use a wider array of compounds (such as growth hormone. and clenbuterol). WNBF bodybuilders such as Layne Norton dwarf WNPF powerlifters such as John Lyras from a hypertrophy standpoint. Higher Reps and Chasing the Pump Powerlifters generally train in a low rep range (1-5 reps) while bodybuilders tend to favor a moderate rep range (6-12). there are certain rules that apply to bodybuilding. intensities. IGF-1. but so do powerlifters. volumes. but many claim to use moderate doses and stick to the basics. T-3. here are several possible candidates that could explain the superior musculature of bodybuilders over powerlifters. so whether this indeed plays any role is unknown. pro bodybuilders take large amounts of performance enhancing drugs. In this case. A better comparison would be to compare the physiques of natural bodybuilders with those of natural powerlifters. Answer – It's How They Train! Bodybuilders are masters of packing on muscle. Elder. Moreover. 365 x 3. 2002). 2009) and previous studies have found very high rep protocols to be suboptimal for increasing muscle growth (Campos et al. 1982). Type 1 fibers are endurance-oriented and thus respond best to longer times under tension. . the bodybuilder lifted 9. training in a moderate rep range promotes sarcoplasmic hypertrophy —an increase in noncontractile elements (McDougall. Studies show that cellular swelling causes both an increase in protein synthesis and a decrease in protein breakdown (Grant et al.. It's also important to take into account the higher levels of poundage (weight x reps) and time under tension (TUT) performed by bodybuilders in comparison to powerlifters. and mixed protein synthesis (Burd et al.. As previously noted. which have been shown to create more muscular damage. 2000. 1984).490 total pounds. Assuming 2 seconds per repetition. although research is still inconclusive in this area (Brentano et al. Each gram of glycogen attracts three grams of water into the muscle cell (Chan et al. 405 x 1. Glycogen is hydrophilic (water loving). 1982. Moderate rep training promotes a greater muscle pump. This increased hydration may thus lead to greater myofibrillar growth through cell swelling mechanisms. Tesch. 2011. which can induce growth through increases in growth factor production and possibly satellite cell fusion (Vierck et al.. providing doubleduty for increasing hypertrophic gains. more research is required as acute protein synthesis doesn't necessarily correlate to greater hypertrophy over time (Mayhew et al. it may result in greater muscle development. 1992. Zanchi et al. There's a large body of evidence suggesting that muscular damage is associated with increased muscle growth. In response. and 335 x 6. 315 x 8. Under this scenario. 1988). Sale. In addition. 275 x 10. Let's say a bodybuilder performs a bench press routine consisting of 225 x 12. Stoll et al. 2010). It's theorized that an increase in water within the muscle cell – consistent with the mechanisms associated with "the pump" – is perceived as a threat to its integrity. More total reps also equates to more eccentric contractions. it may also promote additional increases in contractile hypertrophy. While the pump is often thought of as a short-term training effect. Although interesting. While this in itself manifests as an increased muscle size. high reps to failure were shown to be better than low reps to failure for myofibrillar. 1997). the bodybuilder accumulated 72 seconds under tension while the powerlifter accumulated 20 seconds under tension – a significant difference! In a recent study. Millar et al. 2000). as previously discussed. the cell initiates a signaling cascade that ultimately causes the muscle to grow larger to protect the ultra-structure. Komulainen et al.Performing higher reps would theoretically result in a greater hypertrophy of Type 1 fibers. sarcoplasmic. & Sutton. 2010). The low-rep training employed by powerlifters simply doesn't allow enough time under tension for significant development of these fibers (Tesch et al..980 total pounds while the powerlifter lifted 3. while a powerlifter does 315 x 5. and 415 x 1. greater occlusion and hypoxia may be associated with higher rep pump-style training. 2000. which increases passive assistance while simultaneously decreasing active muscle requirements. it's also about the manner of execution. and lats are made up of many thousands of threadlike fibers that have multiple different attachment sites. many bodybuilders avoid the lockout position to keep constant tension on the targeted muscle. elbows flared. During a pec fly the bodybuilder may only go 2/3rds the way up. whereas many powerlifters allow some form deterioration when approaching a max. delts. and the contortions often involve invoking assistance from passive structures such as ligaments. Mind-Muscle Connection Bodybuilders often preach about the "mind-muscle connection. and thus maximize their development. can further maximize muscle development. Manner of Execution Bret's EMG experiments found that a 225-pound bodybuilding-style bench press (wider grip. pecs. Bodybuilders have been saying for years that it's not just about the amount or resistance used. elbows slightly tucked. Thus. 200). bar lowered to lower chest) (Contreras. a powerlifter might round his upper back excessively to "hang" on his ligamentous structure. Only by training from multiple angles with a variety of exercises can you fully stimulate all of these fibers. This is in direct contrast to powerlifters. In this manner. 2009). . muscles don't always get worked evenly throughout their entire length during exercises (Bloomer & Ives. which reduces stabilizer involvement allowing targeting different aspects of a muscle. 2010). a certain exercise may stress a region closer to the origin or closer to the insertion. Employing some machine-based training. maximum attempts at squats and deadlifts yielded lower EMG activation than submaximal lifts. let's say a bodybuilder is performing dumbbell incline presses. who generally stick with a few basic multi-joint lifts. including many single-joint movements.Targeted Training (Sometimes Called "Isolation Training") Bodybuilders incorporate a large variety of exercises into their routines. Professional bodybuilders typically control the weight and use a smooth tempo. Furthermore. bar lowered to mid chest) activated more pectoralis major fibers than a 225-pound powerlifting-style bench press (narrower grip. the tension is kept on the pecs to facilitate a better pump. Often. He might go 5/6ths the way up and then reverse the weight and head back down." Research has shown that activation training can increase the relative EMG activity during an exercise (Snyder and Leech. These fibers are sometimes compartmentalized and/or supplied by different nerves (Antonio. For example. This is due to the body instinctively contorting itself to lift heavier weights. Machines can be beneficial by creating favorable strength curves with cams and other technology that helps keep constant tension on the muscles. For example. 2000). Large muscles such as the quads. Constant tension can lead to greater mechanical signaling and a better pump. which can assist in muscular growth. Instinctive Training Bodybuilders incorporate a wide variety into their workouts and often don't have a "set plan" when they enter the gym. They're more concerned with optimal mechanics than muscle activation. tri-sets. Perhaps he finds that he's able to perform high rep incline presses with no pain to substitute for the bench press. while the bodybuilder will work around it. For example. The lifter who can come to the gym week in. the bodybuilding method really hammers a particular area and might induce more damage and a greater pump while reducing overload to the CNS. they try to involve as many muscles as possible to generate optimum force. While the powerlifting method is great for total body stimulation. rest-pause. but typically leave room for spontaneity based on biofeedback. Since absolute strength is paramount to a powerlifter. these methods can deliver additional hypertrophy stimulating signals that can theoretically lead to greater muscle growth over time. Thus. and high rep back extensions and chest supported rows to substitute for deadlifts. Many have a general idea about what they want to accomplish. bodybuilders will employ intensification methods to take a set to the limit such as training to failure.For example. On the other hand. all powerlifters care about is lifting maximal poundages. negatives. and possibly decrease the involvement of synergists such as the hamstrings (Wagner et al. a powerlifter attempts to maximize leg drive along with pec. Since the bodybuilder thinks in terms of "working muscles" instead of building lifts. This variety and loose-structure could theoretically lead to greater muscle growth over time due to decreased likelihood of injury. burnouts. 2010). perhaps the pecs feel a bit strained on bench day. and suffering from tears and ruptures. drop sets. whereas most bodybuilders view strength as a means to build muscle and don't really care how much they can squat. many times a powerlifter will ignore glaring biofeedback telling them to back off. Powerlifters by nature are obsessed with maximal strength on the big three lifts. and quad-sets. or deadlift. during the bench press. lats. 2010). training through pain. Intensification Methods Occasionally. bench. or the low back feels dodgy on deadlift day. though they should be periodized properly to avoid overtraining (Willardson et al. anterior delts. For example. pain-free workouts will accumulate more lean mass than the lifter who is always banged up. and triceps contribute to lift the heaviest weights possible. a two-month focus on glute activation could cause an individual to use more glute muscle during a compound exercises such as a squat or lunge. The powerlifter will usually stick to the plan and push through it. When performed sparingly. . week out for many years and perform productive. often he'll listen to the body's warning signals and find a movement that doesn't set off red flags. Bodybuilders purposely target an intended muscle and manipulate their form to maximize the tension on that muscle. supersets. The Power Bodybuilder? Can we simultaneously train for both powerlifting and bodybuilding and thereby achieve a win/win situation? In other words. by incorporating a bit of both can you maximize strength and size? The authors of this article believe that you can't. 2010. Now in no way does this imply that you shouldn't periodize your routine and incorporate periods of heavier weight and lower repetition ranges – quite the opposite – it's a highly beneficial strategy. but to maximize his leg development he trains like a bodybuilder. Now you go back to performing 3 sets of 8 reps. 1996). Although it's unclear whether the acute hormonal effects of resistance exercise contribute to greater muscle growth (Ahtiainen et al. several studies have reported a significant correlation with the magnitude of growth in both type I and type II muscle fibers (McCall et al. . whereas powerlifters often take up to five minutes of rest between heavy sets. 1990). 2011). West et al. Shorter rest intervals have been associated with an increased anabolic hormonal response. and often up to a week." and increase hormonal milieu. Bodybuilders will then wait several days. 1999. Johnnie Jackson has achieved success as a powerlifter and a bodybuilder. 2009. shorter rest times will increase training session density. The improved anabolic milieu should facilitate an improved environment for increasing muscle protein synthesis and possibly satellite cell activity. You see. Häkkinen et al. Ronnestad et al. This will definitely assist with muscular hypertrophy as you're generating more muscular tension within the same target rep range. particularly testosterone and growth hormone (Kraemer et al. Recent research shows that it takes up to seven days to fully recuperate from performing multiple sets of the same muscle group (Ahtiainen et al. signals to muscles are very specific. Let's say that you spend five weeks performing heavy sets of 3 reps or lower. For example. to work that same muscle group. increase "the pump. and by mixing signals you send conflicting messages that will affect the body's response. 2005). and there's evidence to show that exercising too often could result in decreased hypertrophy (Logan and Abernethy. though studies in this area are inconclusive (West et al. Clearly more research needs to be conducted when you consider that bodybuilders who are trying to improve the appearance of a particular body part and bring up a "weak point" usually increase training frequency up to 2-3 times per week with great success.Shorter Intra-Set Rest Times Bodybuilders generally take fairly short rest periods between sets —around a minute or two on average. 2001). but you find that you're able to use 425 for 3 sets of 8. At the very least. Training Split Bodybuilders tend to arrange their training sessions around targeting one or two muscle groups with multiple sets of several different exercises. and you raise your 1RM to 585 lbs. suppose that you can deadlift 405 for 3 sets of 8 repetitions and your deadlift 1RM is 515. 2011). . It seems quite clear that if your goal is to maximize muscular development it's important to never stray too far away from proven bodybuilding principles. you should not obsess with powerlifting totals and try to blend too much powerlifting techniques into your hypertrophy training if increased muscularity is your primary goal.However. As a guy who writes programs. Let's get started! Goal 1 — Increase Muscle Mass (Hypertrophy Training) Let's see. Regardless of your movement selection. but single-joint movements have their place. But I don't know. You must have a pretty good understanding of how a person will generally adapt to each phase. The simplest progression recommendation is to add more weight to the bar. Is there anyone who reads Testosterone that doesn't want bigger muscles? . constantly adding weight to the bar turns out to be a lesson in futility. but I sometimes wonder how many clients these coaches actually train. that progression plan might be too much or too little for someone else. I can understand why a coach might not prescribe a progression plan. Here are a few reasons. The problem is. and for the first few weeks of a training program. This works well for beginners. Laziness It's not easy to prescribe various progression plans. while your buddy responds best to lifting heavier loads. Lack of Experience There are many coaches writing internet programs. I would know exactly how your body is going to adapt to the training parameters. ones that you probably aren't aware of. And even if I did know. Or maybe you're a guy who responds best to increasing reps.Progressions for Hypertrophy and Fat Loss by Chad Waterbury There are many essential elements that should be included in any effective training program. Or maybe you're in a fat loss phase. Individuality In a perfect world. There are many factors to consider. So I'm here to outline my most effective progression plans for hypertrophy and fat loss. it's imperative to have a progression plan in place. but eventually it'll stop working. though. In that case. 3. Obviously. 1. you've got to be smart when choosing movements. a progression plan often isn't included. It's much easier for a coach to simply tell you to do "X" amount of sets and reps with hopes that the rest will take care of itself. 2. I usually favor compound movements. And maybe you have plenty of strength but you need to boost your work capacity. The purpose of this article is to help you understand which methods should be used and why. It's very difficult to make any substantial progress unless you know how to force your body to do what it's not used to doing. A training program is only as good as the planned progression that's included in the program. I probably only had a 95% chance of getting this one right. I often surmise that internet programs are designed for nothing more than the internet. When training for hypertrophy you must ingest more calories than you expend each day. 4 equals 27 total reps. albeit demanding. the following Monday you might only get six reps on the first three sets.) You're immediately faced with a formidable challenge because your gym has a dumbbell set that only jumps in five-pound increments. but its applicability is limited to compound movements when the load is measured in hundreds of pounds. At that point. but it doesn't eradicate the problem. The following Monday you pull out a calculator and realize that you need to increase the load 0. that 2% progression becomes 4. 6. 6. I recommend the three most intense progressions. Load progression Increasing the load with each training session is one of the most effective. the fifth set might only be four reps. muscles. 5. 5x5. often recommend increasing the load 2% when you repeat a training session. too. But many people are anything but ecstatic about this approach. if on Monday you performed 5x5. Therefore. Depending on how close the first session was to failure you might not be able to add a rep to every set. Had you chosen a close-grip bench press with 225 pounds to train your triceps. Without a leap of faith.5 pound load increase. In other words. of course. Let's say you did five sets of five reps (5x5) for the lying triceps extension with 40 pound dumbbells on Monday. The key is to increase the load in small increments. you can simply add a rep to each set when you repeat the training session. Stay with the rep progression until you can complete two more reps with each set (5x7). always round down instead of up (increase the load 5 pounds instead of 10 pounds). Which brings us to the next progression. This forces your muscles to do more work. This above-maintenance nutritional plan allows you to get away with more extreme types of progression because your body is fed with plenty of nutrients. Many coaches. but I will. It takes the biggest toll on your joints and nervous system. and joints. . (I probably don't need to go much further for you to realize the problems with the 2% approach. Hell. if you're ever faced with a 7. That's fine. types of progression. There are two ways to make the most of the rep progression. but it doesn't overwhelm your brain. All that matters is that the total number of reps is higher.8 pounds. Platemates (small magnetic weights) that attach to dumbbells and barbells help. including myself. With a rep progression you aren't forced to work with miniscule load progressions. you can presume that increasing the load five pounds is a relatively accurate and effective progression.5 pounds. you're in a phase where overtraining is less likely to occur. So you're relegated to a 12% load progression instead of 2%. equals 25 total reps. Anything less and you'll end up banging your head against the wall. And this is one of the many reasons why I favor compound movements. When working with the 2% progression. if you follow traditional set/rep parameters such as 5x5. increase the load to the next available increment and start the process over with a new set/rep range that you can manage with the heavier load. Rep progression I like the rep progression for single-joint exercises with lighter loads. For example. 6. but you can still overload your muscles. I like the 2% progression. First. Frequency progression Increasing the number of training sessions for a specific movement is the most effective progression I've ever used for hypertrophy. Friday Week 2: Monday A. Wednesday.M. I favor this approach because I feel lifters get too hung up on a target number of reps per set.M. If you don't know which muscles are emphasized in which movement. Week 6: Wednesday Week 7: pick up with your schedule on any week between 1 and 4 Take note that I didn't increase the number of training days per week.. The next week add a fourth. Wednesday.. Second. increase the total reps by 2 or 3. P. this information is probably too advanced for you.. P.M. Friday Week 3: Monday A.M. P. keep reading.. If you simply added more volume you'd just augment your recovery time. P. unless you make it so. At that point. The third week add a fifth.M. Continue with this progression until you reach 35 total reps.M. P. For the sake of simplicity.. perform one pull-up session before returning to anywhere between three and six on the seventh week. P.M. Each morning and evening workout should be separated by at least six hours. Wednesday A. P. Here's how the frequency progression looks for the pull-up.M. P. I increased the number of total sessions by implementing morning and evening workouts. increase the load and start over. you should increase the frequency of pull-ups. Wednesday A. . you've got to understand planes of movement...M. The next time you perform the training session.. Friday A.M.M. and a squat or deadlift. I break down movements into: upper body pulling and pushing in the horizontal plane. The fourth week increase your pull-up sessions to six. What they should really be focusing on is the total number of reps per lift per training session.M. Week 5: Monday A. First.M. P.. you must have the luxury of training more often. Week 4: Monday A. I've found that twice-daily workouts work better for hypertrophy training compared to increasing the frequency to six days in a row.M. Let's say you want to do 25 total reps with a load that you could lift 4 to 6 times while fresh... Wednesday..M.M.. On the sixth week.. Start the first week with three sessions for pull-ups..The second way to use rep progression is based on a target number of reps. Friday A. But the frequency progression is not for everyone. If you're struggling with pull-ups. and if you want a bigger upper back.M. upper body pulling and pushing in the vertical plane...M. But if you do understand that a wide-grip pull-up primarily trains your lats and upper back muscles. Week 1: Monday. Hold the frequency of six pull-up sessions per week for the fifth week. Friday A. The frequency progression is not complicated.. or simply running outside. Again. The other option is to revert back to three. Here are the progressions. you'll unload every fourth week. Just be sure to unload every fourth week and only perform one training session for the pull-up. If your upper back is still lagging you can jump back into training it six times per week. the higher your EPOC. Therefore. the more calories you'll burn after exercise. In essence. and use the frequency progression for the movements that train your lagging muscles. but instead force you to increase your metabolism by boosting excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC). Before I get to the progressions. All of these steps collectively are known as EPOC. It does this by replenishing energy sources. let me explain what EPOC is. I recommend progression methods that don't mandate lifting ever-heavier loads. Therefore. and all of these steps take energy." Excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC) Therefore. When you're training with weights. Summary Use the 2% load progression for compound movements. Alwyn Cosgrove refers to this as "afterburn. your body must return to its pre-exercise state. use the rep progression for single-joint or light movements. or five sessions per week. Goal 2 — Burn Fat (Metabolic Training) When training for fat loss you must burn more calories than you consume each day. After you finish training your body needs more oxygen. and returning ventilation and heart rate to normal. you have a few options. decreasing body temperature. re-oxygenating your blood and restoring circulatory hormones. your body uses up a lot of oxygen.On week 7. when training for fat loss you should implement progression methods that force your body to use more oxygen. Rest progression . What frequency you use should depend on what your schedule allows. This below-maintenance nutritional plan necessitates less demanding types of progression since you're more likely to overtrain when you're short on nutrients. four. Your body must restore that oxygen debt to maintain homeostasis. From that point. and three total body workouts per week. There's no place for single-joint movements in a fat loss workout! Does that mean you should never perform any trap raises. Workout A 1A) Pull-up Rest 55 seconds 1B) Dip Rest 55 seconds 1C) Clean Rest 55 seconds and repeat The first factor you must respect is the initial rest period. In other words. the rest progression is pretty simple. Instead. I must revert back to my opening statement about the importance of selecting the right movements. Here's an example. Before I outline how to use the rest progression. 60 seconds between each movement in a circuit. and then decrease the rest periods in five-second increments each time you repeat the training session. loads and reps. you're not doing yourself any favors. They all lost a substantial amount of body fat by supercharging their EPOC. the rest periods are too long. you should include exercises for them. But this isn't part of your fat loss session per se. Workout A 1A) Pull-up Rest 60 seconds 1B) Dip Rest 60 seconds 1C) Clean Rest 60 seconds and repeat Week 2. Week 1. if 60 seconds rest isn't enough to make you sweat and feel a little nauseous. If 60 seconds was too long for your first workout. You must start with an effective plan if you want the progression to work. Since you're not increasing the load. who progressed to 10 second rest periods with the same movements.Progressively decreasing your rest periods without changing the load is my favorite method to boost fat loss. stick to five second rest progressions. If you need to strengthen your lower traps or rotator cuff. you force your energy systems (mainly anaerobic glycolysis) to work harder. You can stick with the rest progression for as long as you're training for fat loss. If 60 seconds isn't challenging. your muscles and joints aren't beat up by the lack of nutrients in your diet. it's an addition after your fat loss training is finished. You'll start with a relatively short rest period. . I've worked with people who started with 60 second rest periods. The rest progression really does work wonders for most. external rotations or other joint integrity exercises? Of course not. decrease the rest periods by 10 seconds the next time you repeat it. Beyond the proper movement selection. say. If you follow the typical set/rep plan with. it's likely that your body will adapt quicker. I like to emphasize the rest progression. 5x5 you'll simply add one set each time you repeat the workout. The load won't change and neither will the rest periods. If you're experienced. use the set progression for one workout each week. Stick to circuits derived of compound movements. For fat loss. Let's say your target number is 25 reps with a load you could lift fresh for 4 to 6 reps. Summary: use the rest progression for two sessions each week. And let's say on Monday your sets for the pull-up went as follows: Set 1: 6 reps Set 2: 5 reps Set 3: 5 reps Set 4: 5 reps Set 5: 4 reps The following Monday you'll add a sixth set and perform as many reps as possible. It's effective because adding a set is less taxing than increasing the load or adding reps. if you do experience nausea during metabolic training. so it looks like this: Set 1: 6 reps Set 2: 5 reps Set 3: 5 reps Set 4: 5 reps Set 5: 4 reps Set 6: As many reps as possible Overall. the following Monday you'll do 6x5. You'll keep adding a set for as long as you keep experiencing results. So if on Monday you did 5x5. but it's sufficient to boost your work capacity. depending on how your training sessions are structured.By the way. give BETA-7 a try. you might be able to go from 5x5 to 10x5 over the course of five weeks and still get results. In that case. say. You could go from 8x3 to 10x3 over the course of three weeks. Final Words . It works very well for most people since it reduces proton accumulation during periods of training where anaerobic glycolysis is emphasized. Use the rest progression on Monday and Friday and use the set progression on Wednesday. three total body sessions per week is the upper limit for most people. you might want to limit the set progression to three weeks and start with a higher volume. Set progression Adding an extra set to each lift during a training session is another effective progression for metabolic training. There are two ways to use the set progression. There's another way to use the set progression if you have a target number of total reps with each lift. If you're new to training. This ensures that you're never left spinning your wheels. .It doesn't matter if you're training for hypertrophy or fat loss. Use these methods and you'll always be forcing your body to do more work over time. you must have an effective progression plan in place. high rep sets (in the range of 15 to 20 reps per set) also have a place in a hypertrophy-oriented routine. The good news is.) Here's the good news: Higher rep training increases capillary density and improves muscle buffering capacity. most lifters seem to think this means all training should be carried out in this rep range and thus they rigidly adhere to the same loading patterns. In addition. evidence indicates that a moderate rep range (approximately 6-12 reps per set) is generally best for maximizing muscle growth. Here's how. chances are you're making at least one of the four critical mistakes outlined below. muscle damage. Understand that maximal muscular development is built on a foundation of strength. and without much to show for it. This mandates that at least some of your sets need to be carried out in the lower rep ranges (1-5 reps per set). The problem with lactic acid is that beyond a certain point its accumulation interferes with muscle contraction. The upshot is. On the other end of the spectrum. Wrong assumption. reducing the number of reps you can perform. and thus generate greater muscular tension in the moderate repetition ranges that optimally stimulate hypertrophy. The optimal number of repetitions for hypertrophy-oriented training is a source of ongoing debate in the fitness field. lower intensity sets help to increase your lactate threshold. and metabolic stress – the three primary factors involved in hypertrophic gains.(2) The problem is. By increasing muscle tension without compromising metabolic stress.4 Reasons You're Not Gaining Muscle by Brad Schoenfeld – 9/04/2012 You hit the gym on a regular basis and you train hard – really hard – but for some reason you're just not making the gains that you should.(3) (Technical note: it's actually the H+ component of lactic acid that hastens the onset of muscular fatigue. If this sounds familiar. you're setting the stage for enhanced growth. the point at which lactic acid rapidly begins to accumulate in working muscles. with just a few simple tweaks to your program you can once again be packing on some serious muscle. you develop a greater tolerance for higher volumes of work –an important component for maximizing hypertrophy (see Mistake #2). both of which help to delay lactic buildup.(1) This is often referred to as "bodybuilding-style training" as it seems to provide the ideal combination of mechanical tension. Stronger muscles allow you to use heavier weights. you're able to maintain a greater time under tension at a given hypertrophy-oriented workload. Although the research is by no means conclusive. All that sweat and effort. Provided that training is carried out at or near your sub-rep max. Mistake #1: You're not varying your rep range. . it can provide an efficient and effective workout. hypertrophy training is probably best achieved with moderate rep sets. make sure you include the full spectrum of loading ranges. This is best carried out in a structured. training experience. training with a split routine allows for a greater daily training volume per muscle group versus a total body routine. Other prominent industry leaders such as Mike Mentzer and Ellington Darden subsequently followed Jones's lead and embraced the HIT philosophy. even if you employ multiple sets it's very possible you're still not training with sufficient volume. metabolic stress. performing additional sets beyond this first set is superfluous and perhaps even counterproductive to muscle development. The optimal number of sets needed to elicit superior growth will vary from person to person and depend on a host of individual factors such as genetics.Take home message: Optimal muscle development is achieved by varying your rep range over time. Larger muscle groups such as the back and thighs need a higher volume than the smaller muscles of the arms and calves (which. According to HIT dogma. And if you do indeed follow a training split. Now before I get accused of being anti-HIT. periodized program. 5) Whether the hypertrophic superiority of multiple sets is due to greater total muscle tension. Back in the 1970's. if your goal is to maximize muscle development. muscle damage. And if you're time-pressed. The prevailing body of research consistently shows that multiple set protocols are superior to single set protocols for increasing strength and size. You need a higher training volume. Both undulating and linear periodized approaches can work. provided you train to the point of momentary concentric muscular failure. HIT simply doesn't do the trick. HIT continues to enjoy an ardent following. There's no denying that it can help build appreciable muscle. a 3-day split allows for a greater volume per muscle group compared with a 2-day split). Another important consideration here is the structure of your program. Problem is. HIT is based on the premise that only a single set of an exercise is necessary to stimulate growth. though.. What's readily apparent is that multiple sets are a must if you want to maximize your muscular potential. resulting in a surge in its popularity. training volume is best determined on a weekly basis as opposed to a single session. recuperative ability. . Arthur Jones popularized the so-called high-intensity training (HIT) approach to building muscle. I'll readily admit that it's a viable training strategy. by the way. All things being equal. That said. but higher and lower intensities are nevertheless important for optimizing muscular development. Recent meta-analyses published in The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research show that multiple set training results in 46% greater increases in strength and 40% greater increases in muscle growth when compared to single-set protocols. Whatever scheme you employ. the composition of your split will influence training daily volume (i. and nutritional status. The size of a given muscle also has relevance. depending on your goals. or some combination of these factors isn't clear. Substantially higher. To this day. Accordingly.e.(4. Mistake #2: You're not using sufficient volume. also get significant ancillary work during multi-joint exercises). Sure. But individual response is only part of the equation. Problem is. evidence shows that volume has an even greater correlation with overtraining than intensity. you should realize optimal muscular gains sometime during the restorative period. aerobic exercise regulates AMPK (adenosine monophosphate kinase). AMPK also inhibits activation of PKB-mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin). But if you've been training for more than a year or so." the quest to gain muscle while shedding fat becomes exceedingly difficult. as well as regular lifters who've taken an extended break from the gym. Most lifters don't just want to get big. During the initial stages of training. The same applies for those with significant weight to lose (more than 30 pounds or so). 14-16 sets the second month. While evidence supports the concept of an AMPK-PKB switch.e. Follow this with a brief period of unloading or active recovery to facilitate restoration and rejuvenation. and these pathways have conflicting actions. And yes. and not "anabolically enhanced.Whatever your target weekly volume. This is consistent with the AMPK-PKB switch hypothesis. The issue with concurrent training (i. optimal results are achieved by taking a periodized approach where the number of sets are strategically manipulated over the course of a training cycle.." adaptations between aerobic endurance exercise and resistance training appear to take place along a continuum.(6) Only by embracing periodization can you reap the benefits of a high training volume while avoiding the dreaded overtrained state.(7) Specifically. Understand that repeatedly training with high volumes will inevitably lead to overtraining. Now this doesn't necessarily mean you should refrain from performing any cardio. Here's a periodized strategy that I've found to be highly effective. they also want to get leaner in the process. Mistake #3: You're not adhering to the principle of specificity. an anabolic pathway that's critical to protein synthesis and thus muscle building. At a certain point. This of course has beneficial effects on fat loss. combining resistance exercise and aerobics) is that it can interfere with the processes that drive anabolism. otherwise results will be compromised. If your choice is to bulk up. Beginners can pack on serious muscle while simultaneously losing body fat without much of a problem. Instead of a "switch. which postulates that endurance and strength-related exercise activate and suppress distinct genes and signaling pathways. Let's say you've determined that your maximum weekly volume should entail performing 18-20 sets per muscle group. And this entails reevaluating how much aerobic exercise you perform. then this needs to be your training focus. this is a viable goal.Focus on a three-month mesocycle where you target 8-10 sets a week the first month. In fact. which is associated with pathways involved in carbohydrate and fatty acid metabolism. Given that it generally takes one to two weeks for the full effects of supercompensation to manifest after completion of an overreaching cycle. pharmacologic enhancement also will enable you to get huge and shredded in a hurry. recent research shows that it's overly simplistic. you ultimately need to choose between one or the other.(8) . are fairly lean. whereby substantial overlap exists between pathways. and then culminate with an overreaching cycle in the final month where you perform 18-20 sets per week. you're lucky to retain half of your muscular gains. So for those looking to maximize muscle growth. Remember. Those who are endomorphs typically do better with slightly lower calories. cardio is certainly good for your health and well being. too. Three days a week of 20-30 minute bouts is probably a good general guideline. Add in a cardio component to your routine and you increase the total amount of exercise-related stress placed on your body. that everyone has an upper limit to how much exercise they can tolerate before overtraining sets in. these stresses can interfere with your recuperative abilities and bring about an overtrained state. This is consistent with the old-school "bulking" and "cutting" cycles where bodybuilders would scarf down massive quantities of food to get as big as possible and then go on an extreme diet with calories cut to starvation levels. but again this will vary from person to person. take in more calories than you expend and the excess energy will be stored in the form of body mass. Bad idea. Monitor your progress. Simply stated. This is consistent with the first law of thermodynamics. a more moderate aerobic routine likely won't. So what is an ideal caloric consumption for building muscle without porking up like a Sumo wrestler? A general guideline is to consume between 18 to 20 calories per pound of body weight. which states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. and tweak your program as needed. repeated cycles of bulking and cutting can reset your biological "set point. This mistake goes hand in hand with Mistake #3. you do gain muscle. this equates to a target caloric intake of about 3600 to 4000 calories a day. individual response will vary based upon numerous genetic and lifestyle factors.(9) Bottom line. as much as 25 calories per pound for extreme hard-gainers. In an attempt to get shredded while packing on mass." leading to higher body fat levels in future cycles. the best advice is to err on the side of caution and limit the frequency. As previously noted. lengthy cardio sessions are bound to compromise muscle development. losing fat while gaining muscle is improbable for well-trained.So while frequent. When all's said and done. too. And if nothing else. stay in tune with any signs of overtraining. How much cardio is too much? Impossible to say. while those who are ectomorphic usually need a higher energy intake. Sure. Worse. At some point. If you fall into this category. it's simply not a smart nutritional strategy. but much of that is catabolized during the subsequent dieting process. If you're a 200-pound guy. natural lifters. The problem with this approach is that upwards of 75% of weight gained during the bulking phase is in the form of body fat. lifters will frequently restrict caloric intake while continuing to lift hard and heavy. As with all aspects of exercise. All-too-often lifters will take this to mean that it's okay to eat everything in sight. it's imperative that you consume a surplus of calories in order to support muscle growth. only changed from one form to another. . intensity. Mistake #4: You're not taking in enough calories. and duration of your aerobic sessions. Identify the errors of your ways and then employ the solutions discussed above. you'll soon be back on track to getting the most out of your muscular potential. you're not doomed to remain in a training rut. monitor results over time and adjust consumption according to your individual response. it's likely you're making one of the aforementioned mistakes – perhaps you're even a multiple offender. . Fortunately. a realistic goal is to gain 1-2 pounds per month when focusing on mass-building. If you've been lifting for a while. Conclusion If your muscular development has stagnated.Once you settle on a given caloric intake. . We all have training biases based on what we have done. I've spent my life in the sport of powerlifting. and seen. if you train for max strength. and better-informed. stronger. This is where I'm coming from and always have. Part 1 Featuring Eric Cressey. What do I mean by all this? I mean that I don't see any reason to train for strength and hypertrophy simultaneously. What are the biggest mistakes that people make in trying to get big and strong at the same time? Dave Tate: Before I get into this. so I'm not going to water it down for the purpose of this roundtable. Most people know where I stand and where I come from. I don't get the whole "workout" thing. "Working out" I don't. If you train for both at the same time then you'll have the results of two side effects instead of one full effect. but are chasing the goals of strength and hypertrophy simultaneously. In short. or any other sport. T-Nation: Most T-Nation members aren't competitive lifters or bodybuilders. but for those who don't. In turn if you train for max size. Let me explain. bodybuilding. I competed for over 25 years and have always trained in small private gyms that catered to those who were extremely serious about how they trained. and best-informed hombres in the iron game. baddest. and Dave Tate Moderated by Greg McGlone Next Page | Pages 1 2 Writer Greg McGlone rounded up five of the biggest. To be honest.T-Nation Strength and Size Roundtable. Training I understand. and invited them to share their "secrets" with those of us who also want to get bigger. Dan John. badder. Zach Even-Esh. then strength will be a side effect. I think it's stupid. read. be it powerlifting. then size (much easier to say than "hypertrophy") will be a side effect. here's a quick summary. I feel it's important to expose the fact that I'll have a biased opinion. Clay Hyght. We all trained with total focus on whatever we were training for. strongest. . so I don't lift weights. This is a lot like the girl who says. you'll see strength results. If you are in the vast majority of those who would ask the above question then I challenge you try and do a meet or show next year. if you try to do both. I can hear it now: "But Dave. And vice versa. I heard it. and this brings up problem #2. and then get back to me on how you do. but they won't be as great as if you trained for strength alone.Train for strength. The same holds true if you trained solely for size. and size will follow." . In other words. I don't want to be a competitive powerlifter or bodybuilder. didn't you hear the question?" Yeah. "I don't want to look like those bulky women you see in the magazines. unless of course you're a freak. The solution. take this a step further. the volume at this 75-85% range really takes its toll on advanced lifters. 6x4. get the volume necessary for hypertrophy on assistance . While I could probably do it for one set in both instances. The "charts" say that I should be able to do about 85% of my max (552.5 and 306. And." and start training. respectively) for sets of fives. it won't get the job done. stop "working out. In reality. However. is what many powerlifters are doing today. The problem isn't that they're trying to ride two horses with one ass. but it takes years of consistent training for that one goal to be competitive. I'll use myself as an example. Start your training session with a limited number of heavy sets of one to three (as much as ten sets. while these loading parameters will help to maintain or increase size. You're not going to look or perform like a competitive bodybuilder or powerlifter with just a few training cycles. 5x5. from a program design standpoint). So my advice is to pick either strength or size as a goal. as one becomes more neurally efficient. At a body weight of 188. I hate to be the one to tell you the sad reality of these sports. in the case of singles).Many women don't lift weight for fear of accidentally looking like this. and you'll recognize that my joints will probably hate me if I do this for an extended period of time (most commonly one month. Then. I have a 650 deadlift and 360 bench right now. there would be a big fall-off on subsequent sets. in my eyes. they won't do much for increasing strength. Even if it does have striations in it. Eric Cressey: I touched on this quite a bit in a previous article. Beginners and intermediates will see solid strength improvements on 4x6. the problem is that they try to ride a powerlifter's horse with a bodybuilder's ass. and other classic "middle of the road" bodybuilding approaches. Sure. they do leg extensions with "G" or "H". one guy goes to the big city school or gym or whatever and sees these "monsters" in the gym weighing 185. and miracle of miracles. so you fluctuate within the month rather than just building up week after week. single-leg work. with plenty left in the tank. and the like. they look pretty ripped at 155 pounds bodyweight. well. you might squat heavy (possibly do a backoff set or two in your highest volume week). This is the way to go when ten sets of three and such stops working for you. A classic bodybuilding set-up might be: Week 1: Medium Week 2: High Week 3: Very high Week 4: Low (de-load) My feeling is that you flip-flop weeks 1 and 2 in order to give yourself a break on the training stress and apply the familiarity you've gained (from doing the exercises for a week) to some more significant loading. soon enough. My daughter Lindsay deadlifted 255 in her freshman year. it's hard to hit things 100% every week. one of the gang goes to a big commercial gym in California and. first. or whatever the spa key selector tells them. the MILF) and discover simply that what they thought was heavy was actually a warm up weight for typical high school athletes. Then. As far as de-loading and fluctuation of training stress goes. many of our readers understand reps and sets probably better than me but never load the bar heavy enough. as an example. they all start getting bigger. But. . They work hard. and then move on to rep work with glute-ham raises. And. Simply. and he returns to the old training room with stories of guys doing behind the neck presses with over 100 pounds. Dan John: It's a mistake I see all the time. So. you see where this is all heading. So the group starts slapping on more plates. but they never honestly lift enough weight. let me bore you a bit about a general observation that highlights this issue: when a group of guys get together and start training. I've had men come to my home facility (the Murray Institute for Lifelong Fitness.work. they might use magazines and the internet to get advice. Most guys don't train heavy enough. After a year of this on a trip to Disneyland. doing lots of reps and lots of sets. upping the reps with some supplemental movements with moderate weights (60 to 80% max) and moderate rep ranges (8 to 20) works great for adding size. if you used any kind of real weight. you need to lift a lot heavier. followed by movements in the moderate rep range.If you want to see decent size and strength gains. but. What I've found to work best when it comes to adding muscle and strength simultaneously is to work in a heavy max effort or sub-max effort core lift first. this method gets you strong and it does add size. I get emails from guys who do 5x5 with the following lifts three days a week: • Snatch • Clean and Jerk • Squat • Row • Bench Press • Deadlift Three days a week? Shucks. that workout would kill you if you did it one day a year! Zach Even-Esh: People think that to get big they only need to get strong and train in a very low rep range of 1 to 5 reps. . Without a doubt. Most people are too scared to work their ass off to get stronger and bigger. Am I giving away secrets here? Absolutely not. When I wrote about the guys in the pen. sitting down. and not pushing the limits with heavy weights and intense effort. all jacked up and strong. it has the potential for more horse power. even though I did body part splits. When I was a bodybuilder. because they understand that the higher reps increase hypertrophy. and a bigger muscle is very much like a larger car engine. it's also very similar to what many powerlifters do. You won't get big and strong if most of your exercises involve sitting on your butt. I caught a glimpse of the weight pile outside. we always began with a heavy core lift in the 3 to 6 range with very heavy loads and then worked the shit out of our muscles with 2 or 3 supplemental movements that were basic lifts. not many ground-based movements.This is very similar to what Joe DeFranco uses with his athletes. What did I see? • Dips . slightly lighter and higher reps. I see guys trying to get big doing tons of machine movement. lying down. My gym is actually located dead smack next to a regular gym. so they did what they knew how to do. but it's not easy. all the time. A trainee who is influenced by bodybuilders (whether at the gym . Lift hard. Clay Hyght: The main problem I've observed in the conundrum of achieving both size and strength is that trainees focus their training style too much on one goal at the expense of the other. lift consistently.• Military presses • Squats • Pull ups The 4 movements above should be standard in everyone's program unless some sort of injury keeps them away from these movements. Back in the day when there was no Internet and the local YMCA's were commonplace hardcore gyms. eat tons of clean. Most people only train hard seasonally. Don't get these two terms mixed up. This dude probably doesn't spend much time on the Stairmaster. wholesome foods and listen to your body. there were a lot of big and strong guys. they prepare for summer or for a vacation. other then that. It's very simple. There was no excess of information out there to confuse them. they train recreationally. and that was to work very hard on the basics. The secret is that there's no secret. keeping detailed performance records and steadily improving various facets of that performance is of utmost importance! T-Nation: So is one of the downfalls of the average trainee in this situation that he's focusing too much time on things like isolation exercises and not putting enough time in on the compound movements? Or should they be putting an equal amount of time into both? . When aiming for hypertrophy. performance must still be improved by either increasing the weight or reps or performing the exercise in a manner that better stimulates the target muscle. it's crucial to slowly but steadily increase the load used for a given number of reps. Who says you can't do hanging cleans and presses for 5 x 5 and behind-the-back cable lateral raises for 3 x 15 in the same workout? On an even simpler note. and using a lighter load. I may note in my journal "strong supination with slight pause at the top. On the contrary. Being married to either style of training is detrimental. good squeeze". In aiming to achieve both strength and hypertrophy. a trainee who is influenced by power lifters or athletes who perform Olympic lifts tend to focus excessively on how much weight they can move while failing to properly utilize the target muscle. They often neglect isolation exercises or even direct arm work. When performing dumbbell curls.or via magazines) has the tendency to train too much like a bodybuilder by performing a higher volume. I believe that one of the biggest flaws being made by 99% of the training population is not recording their workouts. I've improved my "performance" and therefore elicited an adaptation response. How can you get stronger if you don't know precisely what weight you used and how many reps you did of each and every exercise? You can't know if you have surpassed a performance if you don't have a record of it! In regards to strength. more isolation exercises. I also suspect that they tend to equate the holy pump to productivity. If in the next workout I did the same weight and reps as the previous time I did dumbbell curls but paused longer in the contracted position. the answer is obvious to me: beyond the basic barbell curl. weighted pull ups. I think about genetics first." Having said all of this. and some of us lucky people would be. One of the downfalls of the "average trainee" is that they're average. by definition. strongest guys. There are genetic superstars in everything we do. ZE: It's always been the case where hard work on the basics works when approached with consistency and very simple methods of training hard for two or three weeks and then reducing intensity for 1 week. the issue can't be solved by waving my hand like Obi-Wan Kenobi and prescribing more isolation or more compound moves. squat. Ever. I use isolation movements on weak areas for the most part. most people don't need isolation work ever. I hope the readers know I'm kidding. So. should absolutely be spent on the basics. This may not seem like the common thing happening in gym because many people at these gyms don't realize that there are thousands of hard core lifters in garages and basements hitting heavy iron. The majority of time though. deadlift. "You want to go home and rethink your genetic potential. they would all tell you they perform the bench. but the "average trainee" is going to be stuck right around average. So. Movements such as face pulls.DJ: We have to be careful here. and bent over laterals are great for developing the weak upper back area and helping build muscle as well. I'm talking about genetics. So. band pull-aparts. I don't necessarily believe in bell curves for everything. utilizing triple hypertrophy mesocycles. military press. but the average trainee has to realize from high school PE class or an honest assessment from the beach that many of us have the curse of average-ness. when I give a workshop and meet a person who has lifted for more than five years. This cult has been growing and it will continue to grow. heavy triceps extensions. yet looks like they've never even smelled a weightroom. heavy barbell/dumbbell rows. Oh. I'm devising a protocol to add six inches to one's height in four weeks or less. If you went to a gym and spoke to the biggest. and cheat curls. I'm always amazed that most people don't realize how hard it is to be tall enough to play in the NBA. Back extensions might be the way to go before deadlifting and squatting if we have someone who is superweak and needs to add muscle and strength to the lower back. Now. less than average. I'm not referring to Constitutional rights or salvation or anything. Those just aren't the droids we're looking for. . Speak to these underground lifters and they will all tell you about benching. and getting the pump. If it helps to have a timeframe for a typical session at Cressey Performance. etc. The last 5-10 minutes is wiggle room for us to put in some of these isolation movements. they pool their money together and pick up the heavy duty equipment needed to get the job done: power rack. Speak to the dudes at the typical health club and you'll hear about Smith machines. Compare the two physiques from a performance stand point and a muscular strength/size standpoint. elbow health (e.g. farmer walks. and plenty of free weights. power bar. prone trap raises). heavy dumbbells. you can tell who spends time under heavy iron on a regular basis! å You can always tell who spends time under heavy iron on a regular basis. . they know they've got five minutes of self-myofascial release. so I think the most valuable ways to include these isolation movements are initiatives that address scapular stability (e. and we're always incorporating "fillers" between sets to get in some extra corrective exercise work.g. squatting.. cable cross overs. lat pulldowns. and then 50 minutes of reactive work and compound movements. and don't really take too much out of you. some chains. I'm a corrective exercise guy. or ankle mobilizations between sets of chin-ups. and the like. when my athletes roll in. hammer curls). but they shouldn't comprise more than 10% of the total training.Hard core groups get together for training more often than we know. EC: I'm not totally against isolation movements. Many of these issues can be addressed in the warm-up. military presses.. another 5-10 minutes of mobility work. An example might be scap pushups between sets of squats. sled drags. deadlifting. You know why? Cause they're hard ass work. I'll stop being a pain in the culo and answer the question. yes. that why! It's a lot easier to do concentration curls than deadlifts. most trainees do put too much time on isolation exercises and not enough time on the compound exercises. You'll probably see more people doing curls during that time period that you'll see doing squats! So as a general rule. CH: At the risk of being difficult. there's no such thing as the "average" trainee. deadlifts. trainees don't do enough compound movements like squats. not one of them would likely have an actual max of 248.M. Take a group of 100 trainees and although their average maximum deadlift might be 248 pounds. except for the flat barbell bench press. Based upon what I see going on in most gyms around the US .So. But virtually all would benefit more from the deadlifts. Go into any gym on Monday afternoon at 5:30 P. but don't kid yourself: you aren't so special that you need three sets of four different exercises for your biceps. and so on. I just say that to point out how hard it is to give accurate advice for the "average" person. and you'll see that there's certainly no shortage of people doing that compound exercise! However. chin-ups. clean and presses. as another sociological observational study. I guess my overall mindset is to appreciate the value of isolation work when it's implemented appropriately. keep an eye on the squat rack for a couple of hours. . that's for sure. Okay. dips. Again. so his goal is to move as much weight as he can for the desired number of reps. I'll use the two extremes in this situation. and not one of them was focusing on getting bigger. The powerlifter is doing what I would call movementtraining. but strength isn't their primary goal. DT: The first issue to address is assuming there's a downfall for the average trainee. if you weigh a solid 210 and genetically have a great back. The best way I know to address this is by using the way a movement is trained and what population is doing it. . If you also watch top bodybuilders train. I'd say that not even half of the exercises one does should be isolation exercises — more like 25%.Hard-ass work. So should they do an equal amount of each? Even though I'm the token bodybuilder at this here round table. They're far from it. The bodybuilder's goal is maximum stimulation of the muscle. The powerlifter's main goal is strength. size will be a side effect. The focus was always on getting stronger. you'll also see that they're not as weak as many people claim they are. This is a hard question to answer because it really depends on what the prime goal of the trainee is. let me conclude by saying that ones' development also comes into play. When these goals are different. If you're training three days per week then why in the world would you waste time doing triceps kickbacks? That's not an efficient use of your (approximately) three hours of weekly training time! Before Eric falls asleep. then I would not be too quick to say there's a downfall at all. while the bodybuilder ismuscletraining. As stated before. I've seen many lifters come to Westside and gain 30-40 pounds in the first year. that's very individual and depends upon a number of factors. If they are making the gains they want. one of which is the type of training program or split the trainee does. then I think it's fine to chill a bit on the heavy deads and opt for something like low cable rows instead. and making sure that the muscle he's training is doing the work. when the powerlifter trains for strength. If you weigh 158 pounds then your little ass had better be doing some squats and deadlifts! On the other hand. The main goal of the off-season bodybuilder is building muscle mass while the powerlifter's main goal is strength. bodybuilding and powerlifting. the way a exercise is trained changes. I bring this up because most "average" trainees I know have horrible control of their muscles. For the bodybuilder it will bring greater focus to the area they are training because they will be able to flex what they are trying to stimulate. The bench press is a great example of this. This is not to say a powerlifter should never focus on muscles and bodybuilders should never focus on movements. Let's say a lifter is weak off the chest in the bench press and the elbows always kick out first. If you watch their form. If I asked the average trainee to flex their pecs (that stupid thing you do to make your pecs bounce). no two reps look the same and in many cases the muscle they are working is barely contracting. traps. This will technically fix the problem but can't be done if the lifter has no idea how to flex his triceps. They can also do this fairly well with their biceps. On one side you have a lifter who is trying to use his whole body to do the lift. but this is getting off topic. and on the other side you have the lifter trying to use the muscle to do the lift. and he'll be trying to place as much focus as he can in that region. from his feet to his head. One solution would be to teach them to flex with there triceps first off the chest and not the pecs. One thing isolation work will do is teach them how to flex and control these muscle groups. This is important for both groups. They have no idea how to flex these muscles. So my answer is yes isolation work is important during the early phases of training and how much depends on the skill of the trainee. The bodybuilder's focus is on the pecs. they can. For the powerlifter this comes into play for weak point training. . A trained powerlifter will know how to use everything to bench more weight.A bodybuilder focuses on stimulation. They just "lift" stuff and have no idea what is going on. while a powerlifter just wants to get it up. There's a big difference between the two. calves and so on they could not do it. Now if I asked them to do this with their triceps. I can also tell "strength" by torso and upper back thickness. training splits. This would right away require lower weights than I've been using. For over 20 years those movements were the biggest part of my training program. This also brought the training weight down. but I have to bust your balls on this one. or deadlifting. then made an amazing bodybuilder-esque transformation last year. but they are some of the best lifters in the world. I can introduce you to many guys who would not fit the definition of what many say strong looks like. Does one have to be rich to look rich? Does one have to be a good person to look like one? Does one have to look packed to have a huge cock or is it just a sock in his pants? What does strong look like? To me. and my base was developed using those lifts. however. the coaches discussed the viability of building size and muscle at the same time. along with a comparison between compound and isolation movements. The rest really does not matter. squatting. I can't help it. I also knew that I wanted to slow the rep speed down and focus more on the muscle rather than the movement.The main work still should be done with basic compound movements such as the squat. elbows. while how much time you spend on isolation movements will vary in importance depending upon the trainee's goals and priorities. I can. poundage progression is of the utmost importance. If I used the power lifts. they'll tackle the topic of whether you have to look strong to be strong. My decision to not do those movements has zero bearing on anyone reading this. For the guy who wants to lift more than a wet paper bag. This was done to give my joints a break from being pounded all the time and to maintain whatever muscle I had acquired while dieting. On your interview with John Berardi on Fitcast. you spoke about how you (at least up until that time of the interview) did not do much barbell bench pressing. along with a fascinating discussion of training splits. who trained as a powerlifter for over 25 years. T-Nation: So far it seems to be the consensus that the majority of time should be spent on compounds. does one have to be strong to look strong? One example would be Dave. I have a very simple suggestion: get stronger! . This leads me to ask. Obviously. but how would this all play in for someone who wants primarily size and to be able to lift more than a wet paper bag? DT: "Does one have to be strong to look strong?" Did you seriously just ask this? Sorry. not what you look like. tell someone's potential for powerlifting by looking at their wrists. and knees. bench. I'd automatically begin to focus on the movement and my aggression would take off. especially for a powerlifter. and a whole lot more! In part 1. and deadlifts. Today. because you didn't want to be reminded that you were not as strong on those lifts as you once were. I'm not sure I understand the second part of the question. I knew my training was going to change from heavy sets under 5 reps (between 515 seconds) to sets over 10 reps (between 30-45 seconds). strong is what you lift. my mindset would always revert back to how I used to train. The bigger the better. and lifts to help increase those lifts. the coaches will discuss whether you have to look strong to be strong. Tomorrow. as I want to blast into the heavy stuff. injuries. but this is a sad reality everyone wants to ignore. Unless you have outstanding genetics it will take a long time. It gets harder when you run into sticking points. Even with all the drugs in the world it still takes time. this stuff is notthat complicated for most people."Grow stronger!" Look. I hate to be the prick here. and even if you're the spawn of Odin you still need to train to see any results. do I have to look like an writer in order to write? You don't have to look like a writer to be a writer. and then 400. For the rest it comes down to something most people just don't get. Get ready for the shocker of your life: strength and size take time to acquire. For most people this time is measured in years. they are reading this for entertainment value because they already know what to do and who to ask if they need help. While this is great. and competition but this is less than 10% of the people who will ever read this. but hey. And if they are in that 10%. don't forget you still need to squat 350 first. Everyone is looking for the way to go from a 300 squat to a 800 squat the fastest way they can. Not just years. but consistent years. I'm not sure I answered this at all. . They lifted barbells and dumbbells. In the end. yet they still get strong. these are the guys who have a very distinct look and you know that they're strong. de-loading. rice. fruits. Throw in some crazy Olympic lifting strength spectacles. wholesome eating and we have a recipe for success. solid physique. some people simply don't eat enough or perform enough volume to get jacked up. Their food choices were whole eggs. periodization. potatoes. pulled 900 plus. I think the guys on this panel have a bit of a different mindset in this regard than many of the people reading this roundtable. Take away the fancy programs. I've seen a large number of people get pretty big doing a lot of "pumping up". Let's search for the strongest guys in the world and the biggest guys in the world. Look at their training facility: Westside Barbell. You won't find any Metros flexing at Metroflex Gym.ZE: For the most part. and then he's deadlifting and benching more than you. and the occasional beat-down given to some drunk guy who manages to get out on the field at Fenway Park. the guys who eat and lift big. steaks. there have certainly been times where we've all seen a dude who looks skinny. big tire flips. wave loading. EC: I guess it really depends on your perception of what strong is. where as the pump up type lifters don't have this physical appearance. Let me bore you to death with my answers. frequently and take time off when necessary and you'll get great results. etc. and let the lifter train hard. and benched over 800. doesn't look like much. and I guess you could say that we thrive on this stuff. nothing too heavy or extreme. . heavy. Metroflex Gym. heavy barbells and dumbbells and not much else. and more of the same. Getting big and strong needs to stay simple. but they are the truth. These guys usually have a rugged. In a nutshell. you can tell if someone is strong by the way they look. There are plenty of people who look big and jacked but they can't move impressive amounts of weight either. heavy. plenty of water. We've all seen (and trained alongside) guys who have squatted a grand. and then you have the hole in the wall gyms outside of the USA: shitty upright stands for squatting. There's that toughness and hardness they've developed. and you look way bigger than he does. Look at many of the guys from the Golden Era. so the bar keeps getting pushed higher (pun intended). But. Coupled with clean. It was common for guys to bench 365 to 405 while weighing between 205 and 210 pounds. superset. you can get stronger through two means: neural efficiency and increased cross-sectional area. that opened the door for me to make fun of him and all of my wife's family for quite a while. but not bestrong is like my wife's cousin. Ronnie Coleman and Arnold would probably tell you the same." Now. In a broad sense. "It might scratch it. The former will ultimately help the latter develop because you'll be able to handle bigger weights long-term. and ultimately helped him get leaner. He wouldn't. and I quote. I can't overstate how important it is for the average trainee. Tyler can't teach you much about getting big and strong. in my madness. I get that. but I understand that there are people who think this way. He didn't want anything to scratch the bed of his pickup truck. so maybe I need to shut up right now. I think that anyone who just wants to look strong. Do what it takes to develop both strength and size in the short-term. I think Dave would be the first to tell you that training to get strong helped him get bigger. I'm a performance guy. however. So. DJ: I think this comes to the crux of a whole set of other problems: do you really just want to "look strong" and actually lift weights that a freshman boy would skip on the way to going heavier? I just can't fathom that.As for poundage progression. My wife has a cousin who once showed up to help grandpa move with this huge damn truck with all the crap on it. and you'll be fine long-term. though. Brad Pitt won't tell you anything. allow anything to go into the bed of his truck because. so quit watching "Fight Club" and put down the pink dumbbells. . it's not as intimately connected as many people make it out to be. however. but there are millions of contradictory examples in between. new actin and myosin filaments will form and existing ones will get larger if one is training for sheer strength. Most chicks care more about how you look than how much you can lift. come from improvements in various aspects of the nervous system that I'll collectively call neural efficiency.CH: While there's certainly a statistical correlation to being big and being strong. . but I generally have about the same amount of lean mass. While he may have lost a good bit of strength in his quest to look sexy. This "stuff" not only involves the size and number of the contractile proteins. On a side note. but I digress. My strength varies tremendously depending upon how I'm training. I feel that the fascia is one of the key limiting factors in muscle size. I feel that strength primarily involves the nervous system. As soon as I learned that chicks don't care how much I can lift but do care about how my body looks. For example: the average size of someone who can bench 400 is bigger than the average size of one who can bench 200. glycogen storage. Training for size. however. but I now have far more muscle mass than I did then. I'm also an example. I was stronger on most lifts when I was 19 years old. is far less about the nervous system and more about causing the body to build "stuff" that takes up more space. he didn't lose a proportional amount of lean muscle mass. I started focusing on the latter. and so on. but a number of others things like sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. capillary density. Heck. To some extent. Dave is a great example of how strength and muscular size aren't directly proportional. The majority of improvements in strength. a light lower body and ab workout on Tuesday. I've gotten tons of feedback from people getting great results with this program. and it scientifically seems less than optimal to me too. take off on Wednesday. but if you over-train. if you're seeking two goals you'll have to blend two types of training. 5. You'll do a heavy upper body workout on Monday. "The best program is the one you're currently not doing. and deadlifts. I know that's damn near sacrilegious around T-Nation. For those of us who have a hard time breaking ourselves away without doing at least three exercises for one body part. and reps are selected in a manner to address both goals. then a four day per week program is worthless. "How in the world can this and high-frequency training both work?" Simple: the common denominator is to train. 8 x 3. a light upper body workout on Thursday. Remember this. But for the sake of this question. you must occasionally look at the results. I've actually designed a program that addresses maximizing size and strength simultaneously. Sure. I've found that training each body part once per week is a sure fire way to allow for ample recuperation. I'll try not to be difficult and assume the person will do whatever I ask of them. another split that I've seen to work time and time again is training four or five days per week and only hitting each body part once per week. I've especially seen this to be the case if one has been training a bit lighter and more like a bodybuilder for a while. But I've seen it work time and time again. So I'm confident that the program is quite sound.0. this onceweekly type of split is great as it allows ample recuperation. You may be asking. Perform your "strength exercise" first in your routine and use a rep scheme like 5 x 5. Essentially. and make sure to improve a little each time you come back around to the lift. sets. Oddly. low-rep strength training as Dave mentioned (and has proven). Next in your routine do something that's more hypertrophy oriented like flyes for three sets of 12. Essentially the light days are a bit more hypertrophy oriented while the heavy days are more strength oriented. then train again. In addition to the success of myself and my clients who have used it. with the last set (or two) being done to failure. I believe it was John Berardi who used to have this email tagline: "No matter how elegant the science. 4. if the client only wants to train 3 days per week. if you under-train a bit you'll still make progress. followed by a heavy leg and ab workout on Friday and some R & R for the weekend. Let me take a step back for a moment to mention an old saying. If you've recuperated five days later. it may even have you under-train a bit. an appropriately designed program that hits each body part once per week tends to yield real-life results. For instance. 2. unfortunately we often have to take things into account that really don't have anything to do with the "ideal" program. recuperate. Take a shorter rest and train close to failure on these sets. or 6.With all that being said. T-Nation: If someone were to come to each one of you looking for equal and maximal gains in both strength and size. you'll still be stronger seven days later. squats." I love that! So although science may point us otherwise. Don't go to failure on these sets. The exercises. Here's the split for this program. 3. Simply use a powerlifting approach on the exercises where strength improvement is your goal — maybe bench. but de-conditioning does not happen that quickly. . It's called Blending Size and Strength Version 2. looking good for the ladies and being strong enough to impress the guys isn't that difficult." Hypertrophy can absolutely be a result of heavy. you won't. what type of a split would you set them up on? CH: As any trainer knows. . it would be a half-body split done four days per week with various sets and rep schemes. the critical goal was to get stronger. after just a couple weeks of focusing on my strength on these lifts. A lot of people move like crap and just need to stand on one foot more often. We've gained strength through full body workouts and we use these more so with combat athletes throughout most of the year. You can't argue with the results and I've seen this over and over through my own clients and seeing DeFranco's athletes as well. and deadlift back into my routine. not the norm. I had been tinkering around the gym for the past 8 weeks just doing some fairly light. When size combined with strength was the goal. splits always worked. You just have to know when and for how long to use them. Getting stronger and eating big always helped me add a lot of size. bodybuilder-type training. There was a time and place for them all. I would not be adverse to testing out six to eight weeks of training on a three-day split. If I found that the upper/lower split was NOT working. and I look denser to boot. In some cases. but I've found it to be the rarity. This always helped me get bigger. On the other hand. I've used full body workouts and upper/lower splits with combat athletes and many football players. My point is that there are benefits to virtually all of these types of training. I use both full body and upper/lower splits and when it comes to adding size AND strength the upper/lower split works great. Since I hadn't done them or even lifted very heavy in a while. on a number of occasions I've ended a strength cycle to pick up a standard bodybuilding split that's much higher in volume and generally lighter in weights.For example. my strength on these would make Dave fall out of his chair laughing. and how to combine them. if I had to design just one program to help accomplish both goals for the highest percentage of readers. To conclude and finally answer the question. I've used split workouts for myself for bodybuilding purposes and every time I was training for bodybuilding purposes. I recently decided to put the bench. ZE: Through experience. I'll notice almost immediately a new fullness and roundness to my muscles that I haven't seen in quite some time. they've gone way up. low-rep manner. I'm definitely leaning towards the upper/lower split if we're looking to add strength and size. except for post-season when we want to pack on extra mass. squat. But. Some people simply don't respond to the upper/lower split. it would be four days per week with two upper and two lower days. These are done in a heavy. we'd throw in some single-leg work on one of the upper body days as well." EC: No doubt about it: in the overwhelming majority of cases. not what an internet article insists on doing. I still like whole body workouts at least once a week. "Westside for Skinny Bastards. My best gains have always been with total body workouts with a daily emphasis on one part or another. eventually your body needs something different. It certainly seems to be written about a lot on the net and. I've tried a boatload of splits and I still change things up to this day. I had to learn this myself through experimentation. but keep the weights and the reps at 80%. I like Terry Todd's idea of a whole body "80%" day where you do all the lifts on your split days. I did something like this for a few years: • Day One: upper body focus Some easy squats and pulls • Day Two: lower body focus Some easy pushes and arm fun . my heart still thinks that whole body is better. I remember making phenomenal gains training on a four-day split every other day! I was getting stronger and bigger without fail. from what I can tell. DJ: For most people. Programs work for only so long." would be a pretty good split.It's easy to stop discovering what works for you now that the Internet is out. Change is certainly a good thing and man. so even though I see people doing better on a split. That's what people need to start doing today. Terry Todd. getting a lift from his wife Jan. even if you are splitting. most people seem to be getting good results. Experimenting with what works and seeing how it applies to them. Then I got this back: "I'm looking for 33% strength. The last 1% is missing because I don't want to train too hard. I see no point what so ever in shooting for 50% size and 50% strength. 33% size and 33% fat loss. it made my day. well. " Not only did this reaffirm my reaction. me. You go for it all or nothing.• Day Three: 80% whole body workout You can keep doing that workout for a long time and it doesn't seem to burn you out. "I don't do moderation. DT: I must be one of those guys who sees the glass as half empty because all I see here is moderation on both sides. even if there was such a thing. I wanted to see if my first reaction was legit or if I was just being." As stated before. I believe in burn out and overtraining because I've been there. and was one of those comments that keeps coming back to you through out the day getting funnier each time. how do you know if you're unequal? I actually tossed this question out to a couple people to see what there reaction would be. Anyone who knows me very well already knows that I don't do moderation. It's either Blast or Dust. I'm glad this was asked because it brings up some things were I feel . Why not 30/70 or 40/60? And what does that constitute in the first place? Is one inch on you arms equal to 30 pounds on the bench press? Better yet. Like the last question. I know some people who have never trained hard who don't believe in overtraining. most people make mistakes. but I don't get it when it comes to training or program design. This is because I've seen all the same things more times than I can count. I can make some crap up if you like but if this is the case then you can do exactly the same thing. So in the regard to max strength on these lifts." I have to agree and disagree with the statement about me getting weaker while dieting. Mostly because I was not training them or training to improve them. Case in point: after I tore my pecs I knew I needed stronger triceps to take over where my pecs could no longer do the job. Am I supposed to develop a program that'll only make you half-strong? This may also come back to who is being asked this question in the first place. my max squat. I also was not doing any reps under eight. In turn my arms got bigger from the specialization I had to do for . "I don't want to train too hard. On all the other movements I was doing I got stronger. Weaker at what? Yes. bench. strength must be defined. and I'm sure I can find something other to do with my time then making up some program I would just pull out of my ass. I know the extreme end of strength. This is a matter of definition. I like to pretty much stick to what I've seen work. So before we begin to speak about strength gain and strength loss. and if you train for size it doesn't mean you'll get weaker. Just because you train for strength. The issue I have is with this split focus. If you need to know about how to set up a 50/50 program than I suggest you find those who do this day in and day out. I know what people mean by it. and pull went down. This is what I've spent my life doing and where my experience is. but I'm not one to do the moderation because I've never done so. Most of the muscle I've built has been a side effect of what I was training for. many I had not done in years but there were many I used to do as accessory movements to my main lifts that got better. You can take what I say and moderate it how you need for your own training. yes I got weaker. I'm not real big on research and theory. Once again. So this is what I know. I know how to break down and build the three main lifts very well and can spot flaws and know how to fix them rather fast. it doesn't mean you'll get smaller. I've never claimed to be anything more than someone who can help people get strong in the main lifts. then why are you taking Saturday and Sunday off training when you don't work on those days? Why not take off Monday and Tuesday when you know you'll be working late? My schedule is more demanding now than it has ever been. I guess what I'm saying is I think I know what I know. and then there are those like myself. stronger. I'm just restating what I said at the beginning of this roundtable.them. For the squat. strongest. and invited them to share their "secrets" with those of us who also want to get bigger. With movement based splits the movements can be what you like. This is very simple stuff and I want to punch myself in the face for writing it but I see this all the time." See where I may not be the muscle mass go-to guy? There are many ways to split training programs. Take a look and those who are on team EliteFTS. People miss training sessions because they put them on days they already know they wont be able to do most of the time. My experience is on the strength end of the spectrum so this is where I like to stay. I try to find the best I can for this. bench. and better-informed. it would look like this. others like movement patterns. I feel it's more important to set clear and concise objectives for each training phase. I tell them. The intention was never to get bigger arms. and know where to go for those things I don't know. To keep things simple. but to find a way to bench more. baddest. Everyone else I've spoken to seems to base their splits on what they've read or what they've been told. Day 1: Squat and Deadlift: Max effort work and accessories Day 2: Bench Press: Max effort work and accessories Day 3: Squat and Deadlift: Dynamic effort work and accessories Day 4: Bench Press: Dynamic effort work and accessories One other thing I want to state about training splits is how and when the days fall. Now. Some like bodypart splits. and use them as my own network to help fill the gaps with my own training. In short. I'll use what most readers know and have read before in the Eight Keys articles. This brings up another bit of advice. I've always surrounded myself with people who know more about specific training aspects than I do. Many coaches I know will pick 3-5 they want to build and use them as the target focus. "Tear both pecs. and best-informed hombres in the iron game. . Powerlifters will use the main lifts as will Olympic lifters and some strongman. or something like that. or train for muscle mass and let strength happen. badder. and I feel you should either train for strength and let size happen. and when people ask me what I did to get them. who like to keep them movement-based (squat/deadlift and bench press). and deadlift. I'm not blowing this question off at all. I have big arms. For lifters. Writer Greg McGlone rounded up five of the biggest. The most important aspect of any training split is what will work with your schedule. this is determined by what day the meet is. You have seen this with my writing and training log. but I know enough to not train on Monday because there's always too much going on. there are much better people to ask about that. I'm not comfortable writing or speaking about the other end of this spectrum because I don't have much in the trenches experience there. If your work week is hell. They are there for business reasons but I would be lying if I said there were not selfish reasons as well. though these gains would be compromised a bit. they tackled the topic of whether you have to look strong to be strong. supplementation. I'll simply give some rule-of-thumb guidelines. Only because Biotest makes something better than a multi. and some final thoughts. more high carb days and higher amounts on those days will create more anabolism. I recommend that just about everyone take a fatty acid supplement and a good multivitamin. what would you suggest to someone along the nutrition and supplementation fronts? CH: That's a million dollar question. the topics include nutrition. I could fill volumes with more nutrition stuff. On the other hand. I find that most people do best with carb-cycling. along with a fascinating discussion of training splits. Though I don't consider it supplementation (I consider it food). but I actually cycle the fat along with the carbs. For those of us who are a bit more hardcore I'd recommend periodically using creatine and beta-alanine. In part 2. I say carb-cycling. Biotest makes great products in each of these categories except the multi. a whey/carb combo para-workout is of utmost importance. recovery. Would they be happy keeping their body fat the same? Or are they hell bent on simply gaining maximum size and strength. . One of the key variables here is whether or not the person wanted to try to get leaner while achieving some gains in size and strength. I'm not really big on supplements per se.In part 1. I find that cycling in this nature allows hypertrophy to happen about as fast as it can happen. As for nutrition. And yes. we implement more low-carb days or make the carbs on that day even lower. With that being said. but I'll save that for a later day. along with a comparison between compound and isolation movements. the coaches discussed the viability of building size and muscle at the same time. To lose weight faster. Today. Greg! The real answer to that could not only fill a book but volumes of books. Too many people try to use them to make up for crappy nutrition and/or training. T-Nation: Along the same lines of question 4. and don't care if they gain a little fat? Without having a specific person for me to design a plan for. but keeps body fat in check. I'm a relative strength athlete. and thinking more in terms of what I need to do to fuel my training. protein. as do many others. EC: As far as nutrition is concerned. You need to be aggressive with your caloric intake.Oh. nutrition is an individual thing. and you have an endocrine "bounceback" from the higher volume training periods. and avoid magnesium oxide as it has poor bioavailability. The secret is to stick to more veggies. we don't need to jack up calories to put on size while building strength. If some guy is 250 pounds at 35% body fat and has never lifted. Endomorphs are going to need to be a lot stricter than ectomorphs. John Berardi. Then again. that they are about the best in the business. I'm generally spending a lot more time at maintenance. muscle mass gains are secondary to strength increases. I've used all three for several different reasons and feel. Calories need to remain high during de-load weeks to take advantage of the rebound that'll take place when a ton of fatigue is removed. one more thing that most will benefit from: additional magnesium. DT: I'm not qualified to answer this one. Fiber at every meal 3. Training experience also plays into it. Dr. Most guys who need to pack on strength and size need to be more aggressive with their caloric intake. Protein at every meal 2. Most people have a magnesium deficiency. and that ain't good from a health or performance standpoint! Choose a form that ends in -ate like citrate or malate. he'll gain muscle by just eating the right stuff. and healthy fats during those time periods. I outlined some of the approaches I've taken in my "Periodize Your Diet" article a while back. so I'm not always looking for a caloric surplus. and Justin Harris. and with a caloric deficit. That said. on the whole. Fish oil 2-3 times a day I also insist on the following: . DJ: I have three basic "rules" that I tell every athlete: 1. I would suggest the likes of people such as Dr Eric Serrano. " The athletes I work with can't be bothered to floss twice a day. Water as your major beverage Yep. But. so if my experience argues anything it's that most athletes are. 3 meals a day (or more!) 3. I have yet to find an athlete who wants "more strength" or "more size" who follows all six. It does not happen! Which is the point of the floss: if you don't have the will and discipline to do something as simple as flossing. I have kids who take massive amounts of creatine but don't eat breakfast. and omega-3. Few people do. fiber. Been there. They eat and drink a lot. drumroll please. I won't explain the number of grams to lean body mass: waste of time. done that. . they are all basic. I won't go into calories a day because it's a waste of everyone's time. When I give workshops. how can I intervene and train you to eat or drink six controlled meals a day. why do many coaches and trainers map out thousands of pages of "measure one ounce of chicken breast and mix it with one ounce of extra virgin olive oil with one gram of creatine. Eat Breakfast every day 2. but don't get enough protein. yet deprive their muscles of enough protein. overfedand undernourished. So. So. you end up coaching fat asses who need to build size. Let me just say this: the Velocity Diet proved to me that what I was lacking most was protein.1. but we expect them to hold to measuring each and every morsel of food for thirty-one weeks? Everyone knows how important it is to floss regularly. The challenge of the floss issue is this: you knowyou should floss but you don't take the minute a day to do it. I always mention that "everybody knows" that we need to floss twice a day. They consume massive amounts of calories. then we can address other issues. But I hit a plateau. The hard thing is this: most people striving for increased strength or increased lean mass will fail because of the discipline issues. Once the athlete has either completed or failed the V-Diet. It's between your ears. It won't work. I was able to eat a meal and then after almost every meal I had a bowl of cereal or a turkey and cheese sandwich. but the bottom line is higher up. and then maybe some more shit at night. and then fall off the wagon for a few days. Most people skip breakfast. eat nothing until dinner. have a shitty lunch. I was always lean. You can't eat great and enough quality nutrition for a few days. ZE: Consistency has been the biggest factor with regards to making improvements. or eat a crappy one. the methods may vary. When I was in my late teens and early 20s. bread. There's enough information out there to help you with either goal.Really. and in one week my body looked completely different. I eliminated milk. The problem here is self-discipline. . so I knew that if it was broke. What has always worked for me is the following: • Breakfast • Lunch • Afternoon meal • Dinner/post workout meal • Late evening meal I encourage my student athletes to do this as well. this is for nutrition andtraining. it had to be fixed. this is why I strongly recommend now that an athlete start a year long or multi year training program by doing the Velocity Diet for 28 days. and my strength increased slightly as well. and dairy. EC: I summarized a lot of my ideas in my Cardio Confusion article a few years ago. I'm not a big advocate of the. especially during "bulking season. and our leg workouts are performed at a fast pace. regularly eating the same foods over and over again. but. as I've experimented with consolidation of CNS-intensive work.Definitely not the breakfast of champions. The best nutrition results always came from minimal variety with myself. the sled. wholesome foods on a regular basis throughout the day. he'll make great gains. and many of my ideas on this front remain the same simply because it worked so well. I also like to see workouts moving at a fast pace. T-Nation: What are some recommendations in terms of cardiovascular conditioning/GPP for someone who's primary goal is size and strength? I know alot of people obviously hate cardio or any kind of conditioning work. I don't care how strong you are. but. do a set. tons of water. if someone simply applies himself to eating clean. . and still seen solid strength gains provided the timing is right. and stair running. and veggies. rest again" routine. sledge hammer training. Plenty of protein and wholesome carbs. and meal replacements when necessary. fruits. you have to be able to move your body! I love the simple tools: the prowler." ZE: Being big & strong is not an excuse for anyone to become fat and out of shape. I'm incorporating more interval work nowadays. rest a minute. My forte is definitely not nutrition. One day I'll be able to eat whole foods on a regular basis. the meal replacements with some fruit are way better than fast food or processed crap that you find out and about. hill sprints. We often combine a push-pull movement together. "do a set. All in all. As stated before." You have to lay the foundation. prowler. and the other GPP basics. while at the same time may not be the best selection for someone whose main goal is size. go with the sled.If size and strength are the main goals. Start with a few trips of 50 feet done after your normal session. it really depends on whether you're dealing with an endo-. almost as if you were doing double sessions. But. "Give me heat. if you please. nonconsecutive days per week. one day off split and drop the intensity or volume to 60% of previous day. or mesomorph. Sure there are many other things you can do. two days a week of front squats. in the beginning. . just stick with 20 minutes of light cardio 3-4 times per week done after training or on off days. I call them "the last three decades" where you don't do cardio. or wheel barrel work. DT: I hate cardio as well but feel it can aid in recovery during this time. I feel one of these needs to take priority over the other so the simple answer is yes I do feel it can be helpful but can also be disastrous if it begins to impede with the work you are trying to do in the weight room. The more prone to fat gain a guy is. I think one of the reasons I could handle the volume of the Dick Notmeyer workouts (three days a week of O lifts. the pure size guy can do the prowler work but it has been my experience most who are training for pure size should really be training for pure strength. the 140-pound guy out there who wants to carry 240 will probably balk at the idea of sled pulling. that way. I called it "playing. basic games. farmer's walks. But as always. things tend to be "lumped" into one period. But. Sure. Here's an example for when the prowler is used: Day 1: 200 pounds for 2 trips of 50 steps Day 2: 120 pounds for 2 trips of 50 steps Day 3: 70 pounds for 2 trips of 50 steps Day 4: Off Day 5: Repeat For pure size. like a fireplace. CH: My off-the-cuff answer is 20-30 minutes of cardio done on three. and wheelbarrow work will be a better choices for someone whose aim is pure strength. and actually light it to get some heat. Those who are more endomorphic and those who are at higher risk of cardiovascular disease should typically do more. there are going to be times. I also feel it needs to be somewhat specific to what you are training for. various sled pulls." but we can call it GPP. and yes. the more conditioning work you need to do. ecto-. work on a three days on. so there you have it. you have to add some kindling and fuel. For pure strength. and heavy jerks) was the base I had achieved through years of organized and disorganized sports and fun. For example Prowler Pushes. So. to do something that prepares you "globally" to support the heavy training. Too many people think they can just walk over to the fireplace and say. it really depends. it's best to do the interval work within 24 hours after a lower body training session. though. Once you develop a base cycle the GPP. be sure. DJ: I think we had almost a generation miss GPP. so why burn some off with cardio? I would like to add that the catabolic effects of cardio are way overstated and exaggerated. then their diet is messed up! There's no need at all to have to do three hours or more of cardio per week to stay lean. and so can I. especially in the lower body. I've done it both ways. T-Nation: What do you suggest in terms of enhancing recovery from training on a daily basis? CH: Obviously nutrition is the key factor in maximizing recuperation. Many of my clients do quite a bit of cardio and steadily gain muscle. if someone has to do a lot of cardio in the off-season in order to stay fairly lean." especially for a competitor. All that fat you gain in the name of "bulking" will later have to be dieted right back off when you want to lean up. However. Keeping body fat at a reasonable level is veryimportant when "bulking. and females under about 14%. It's hard enough for ectomorphs to eat enough calories. at least not as far as gaining muscle is concerned. . and I can say that starting a diet with a body fat in the single digits is far easier than coming down from 15 or 20%! So don't hesitate to do some cardio to keep body fat down. Keeping body fat at reasonable levels is very important when bulking. I actually have all my year-round male clients keep their body fat in the single digits.On the other hand. I think doing some sprints will help develop mass. So I wouldn't hesitate to have someone do two high-intensity-interval-training sessions and a couple of steady state sessions per week while attempting to gain lean mass. a very ectomorphic individual should do no cardio at all. In fact. That should be a huge red flag that the 'ole diet needs some serious work. But I'm going to assume we don't need to talk a whole lot more about pre and post-workout nutrition and BCAA intake. or during a very heavy training phase. DT: This is a trick question. So the first thing is to make sure your program is solid. it's still of utmost importance in terms of growth. if you already have chronic shortening and adhesions then Active Release. in essence. Neuromuscular Reeducation. It should be obvious. but only when needed. and point out that cardio can also enhance recuperation. However. Hypertonic muscles typically develop bands of fibers or areas of a muscle that are. enhancing the healing of training-induced microtrauma. There's tons of information out there. or a similar technique should be utilized to restore optimal function. as they have practice and sessions that have to be done no matter what. For most of the readers. I'm torn whether or not HIIT can enhance recuperation. It seems to increase circulation throughout the body enough to aid in the transport of nutrients and the removal of waste byproducts. because if you have good programing this would not be an issue. Even if we disregard the improvement in biomechanics that comes from stretching and mobility work. If this is the case then the best means of recovery is rest. those fused fibers won't grow themselves. Even with the best programming the stresses of training and life can still add up and begin to screw up your recovery. just taking a few extra days off will take care of their needs. does wonders for recuperation. now. this may not always be an option. If you use them all the time they will lose their effect and actually hurt your own natural recovery timeline. And looking at it more simply. The longer I practice. like fast walking on a slightly inclined treadmill. Here are some things I've found to be effective: • Massage • Chiropractic • Epson salt baths • Steam contrast • Sauna contrast • Shower contrast • ART therapy • Electrotherapy • Ultrasound . For competitive lifters and many other athletes. fused together with scar tissue. stretching and mobility work should be enough to maintain optimal length and function. without a doubt the absolute best thing that one can do daily is to stretch. There are many things you can do. Assuming your muscles are reasonably healthy. But I feel strongly that light cardio. from my experience not everyone gets the same effect. You also have to look at the fact that a tight (hypertonic) muscle will decrease the neural firing (and strength) of its antagonist. The key to remember is that recovery aids should not be used all the time. These fibers compromise force output which will ultimately reduce hypertrophy. At least. while some means aid in one's recovery they can very well ruin another. I'll get off my soft-tissue soapbox now. and each is an article (or book) in itself. the more I realize how important flexibility is. It's also important to note. if you need it. that's my theory. So you need to find out what works best for you. Fascia can also bind to the muscle and decrease performance and hypertrophy. that maintaining optimal muscle integrity is of utmost importance.As far as other modalities to enhance recuperation. and has actually become part of my squat training (the night and morning before). epsom salt baths. I think the lessons we can take home on this are: . The one I've used the most.There are many other things. and still is today. "heavy" is a relative term. was first introduced to me by Chuck Vogelpohl. "Heavy" means different things to different people. it's something you're going to encounter. but these top my list. or unrealistically heavy for a guy who struggles to pull 315. if you lift weights at any significant degree of intensity. You really have to take into account the role that supportive musculature plays in all of this. EC: We know that retired lifters have reduced disc heights under diagnostic imaging. and I laughed my ass off when he told me but it did help. That said. Heavy for me on a deadlift would be 650 to 700: something that would feel like speed weight for a guy like Andy Bolton or Ed Coan. I figured if it was good enough for an 1100 pound squatter who has been through the mill then it was good enough for me. If possible. NOT good! For the stuff everyone can do: foam rolling and rolling on medicine balls.1. Lots of carb crap. Do everything in your power to teach your body to move efficiently so that when you do load on the big movements. yet highly underused. my athletes do this in the beginning. etc. Eat your damn protein. ZE: The simplest tool of all. This list might never change. but get them when you can! • Eating clean foods • Taking one full week off every three or four months DJ: For the newer lifter. 2. and if they need. I encourage and communicate heavily with my athletes. is listening to your body and training accordingly. I allowed my crazy mind to drive me into the ground. you can do so safely. "If you live your life the right way. Not all practitioners are equally effective. optimally 60 to 90 minutes. belt squats. and sleep. but I'm amazed at how light the protein intake for many athletes is during their "bulking" phase. We do this every workout at the end. De-Loading is important regardless of your training age. instead. recovery techniques are as simple as drink water. it was because I trained differently than what my body was ready for. we might de-load that day or that entire week! Every time I've been injured through training. I gauge my athletes during the warm up: verbal and non-verbal communication. It was a lack of mental discipline where I would not listen to my body. too. we're talking single-leg movements. but little in the way of protein. you'll probably wind up in an orthopedist's office at some point. If you live it the wrong way. seek ART treatment. We may have a planned intense week but if they express the need and I see the need. ." 3. With respect to this discussion. something Jason Ferruggia encourages me to do all the time. You may have planned a 3 week phase of very hard training. please keep that in mind. you'll wind up in a cardiologist's office. take fish oil. but what if you feel like shit mid way through week 2? Do you train as planned or train according to what your body is telling you it needs? I train how my body tells me to train. eat protein. pull-throughs. To paraphrase a quote from an old conference review I did here at T-Nation. every workout. • Massage every 10 to 14 days • Daily naps. the basics. The biggest problem is hard work and lack of consistency. The physiques of the early 1900's through the late 60's are often times way better than those of today. I think the mind is more involved in strength gaining than one would first imagine. but the training methods and equipment back in the day were nothing compared to what we have today. but I would always rather be stronger than simply bigger. but only after she tells us to go to hell? . It's a skill. Hypertrophy is a bit more complex. thanks for asking. and those guys were fucking strong. Sure. and tons of good food will always do the trick. why do girls like guys that take them for granted? And why do we guys end up wanting the same girl we took for granted. For starters. Those of us who have been at this game for years know that even after 15 years of training. consistency. ZE: Training is simpler than we make it with regards to strength and size development. there were plenty of skinny and fat bastards back in those days as well. as Pavel says all the time. CH: My thoughts on anything? Yeah.Drink your damn protein Overall. I've got thoughts on a lot of things that I've actually wanted to get off my chest. hard work. T-Nation: Any final thoughts you might have on anything. The tricky part is that there are a million different ways to do just that. 2) Only go to failure on the last set of an exercise. 1) Train hard but train for less than one hour.Why do we end up wanting women even more when they've told us to go to hell? Oh. . 3) Make the basic exercises the core of your routine. Sorry. I don't think most people fail because they're doing the wrong program. No program will make up for inconsistency or lack of effort. allow it and the nervous system enough time to adapt (but not much more). However. and rack my brain on. and then repeat. you probably meant anything related to size and strength. it isn't rocket science. Well. I think most fail because they're inconsistent with either their training. nutrition. four times per week. While I'm the first to engage in discussions about. I think we often make both training and nutrition far too complicated. the minutia of getting bigger and stronger. It's this simple: stimulate the muscle enough to elicit adaptation. 4) Keep a log book and improve regularly. I'll close by disregarding specifics and giving a handful of guidelines that will work for the vast majority of people. or both. 5) Take four weeks off per year. 6) Eat 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight per day, divided across six meals. 7) Eat about the same amount of carbs divided across six meals. 8) Eat at least 50g of "healthy" fat per day. That's it! Those guidelines summarize my nine years of college and 20 years of weight-training. Now that I've given away my secrets, I'll have to look for another line of work. Thanks a lot, Greg! EC: I love the fact that you've gone out of your way to bring some bright guys from different backgrounds together to throw around ideas on how there are different means to the same ends, yet some principles are universal. Still, with all that said, I can't state enough that all of this doesn't mean anything if you're stuck in a bad training environment. A crappy program performed with an awesome environment will yield better strength and mass gains than a fantastic program performed in a poor environment. The most successful guys are the ones who are not students of the game, but who realize that when push comes to shove, it's their surroundings that make them better the fastest. I'd like to think that my biggest success with Cressey Performance has been putting solid programming together with just the right attitude and environment. People need to use T-Nation for the programming aspect of things, but bust their butts in the "real world" to ensure that they're in surroundings conducive to success. DT: Yes, I can add some final thoughts. People need to stop looking for the catch-all (strength and size). Pick one and train for it, and when you get bored or stop making progress, pick the other. This way you are already moving forward. Simple concept, but for those who have been striving for both, let me just ask you this: "How's that been working for you?" T-Nation: Thanks gentlemen. I hope the readers enjoy this as much as I did The Cure for Skinny A Roundtable, featuring Joe DeFranco, Vince DelMonte, and Craig Weller by Nate Green Next Page | Pages 1 2 3 4 Are you afraid of blowing away in a strong gust of wind? Tired of looking in the mirror and seeing vermicelli arms and Tinker Toy legs? Does your little sister ask to borrow your clothes... and threaten to beat you up if you refuse? Do you ever look at the 45-pound plates in the gym and wonder when you'll be able to use them? Sick of answering questions that remind you of the one subject you try to avoid? You aren't alone: Lots of guys share your hypertrophy-averse physiology. Many of them manage to work their way into more mirror-friendly proportions. I'm one of them, and I report to two former skinny bastards who grew up to be Testosterone Muscle editors. A select few end up as coaches who help guys like us get bigger, stronger, and more athletic. I talked to three of them: Joe DeFranco, a strength coach based in New Jersey who works with elite high school, college, and pro athletes; Vince DelMonte, author of No-Nonsense Muscle Building; and Craig Weller, a trainer based in San Diego and popular Testosterone contributor who's a former member of the Navy's elite special-ops forces. I locked the three of them in a room and wouldn't let them leave until they filled my tape recorder with nutrition tips, training strategies, and lifestyle adjustments that they've used to help themselves and their clients work up to larger shirt sizes. Testosterone Muscle: Let's go back to high school. How would I have picked you out of a crowd? What about now? Craig Weller: I was a 98-pound weakling. I remember being on the eighth grade football team and looking at the roster to find out I weighed less than everyone on the seventhgrade team. My dad actually listed my weight on the roster as 105 pounds because I was so damn embarrassed that I wasn't in the triple digits. But then I bought a Joe Weider program out of the back of a magazine and started lifting weights. I found better and better sources over time, and when I was a junior in high school I weighed 175 pounds and was deadlifting 405 pounds fairly easily. I now weigh about 185 pounds, although I'm still recovering from my last trip to Nepal, where I lost about 20 pounds. Craig beating the hell out of a tire. Vince DelMonte: I was a lot like Craig, but I actually grew up as a long-distance runner. I ran for the University of Western Ontario for four years, and even represented Canada at the National Triathlon Championship. So if I had any chance of building muscle, I probably made it worse with all that endurance training. At the time, I weighed between 135 and 149 pounds. Vince's jersey looks a little big During my second year of University, I lived in a house with eight guys. They called me "Skinny Vinnie," and it stuck. All the girls thought it was cute, which as we all know is the worst possible thing for a girl to call you. So I decided to make a change. Luckily, one of my professors was none other than John Berardi. My friends and I used to follow him around the gym and copy what he did. We called him "The Bible of Bodybuilding." behind the green barbell. and I decided to be a personal trainer. Right now I'm about 225. I now weigh 210. I grew tall way too fast. I met guys like Charles Poliquin and Ian King. DeFranco. But what's more important is that I've helped a ton of high school and college athletes gain huge amounts of muscle too. No jersey. I was 5'11" and weighed 125 in the eighth grade.John invited me to a SWIS [Society of Weight-Training Injury Specialists] symposium. I didn't look like one. Joe DeFranco: I was definitely a skinny bastard. . no problem. My dad used to take me to his hardcore gym with a bunch of ex-cops and military guys and I'd just do what he did. I went from 149 to 190 in six months. Only catch was. TM: Philosophers have been debating this question since the advent of written language. Listen. right? But here's the kicker: We're not going to be too strict or pissed off if he eats McDonald's a few times per week. so I'll put it to you: What's more important for the naturally skinny kid — training or nutrition? JD: Nutrition. you'll need a lot more. plus a tattoo. The overriding factor is that they have to put more calories in their body than they burn off. And for a hard gainer whose genetics are working against him. If you're going to gain some size. Same guy at 202. as soon as I get a real skinny high school kid. you can't just have a caloric surplus of 100 or 200 calories a day. the first thing I have him do is just start eating a shit-ton of food. hands down. TM: But McDonald's? . That's obvious.DeFranco client Mike Guadango at 178 pounds. So before anyone increases the calories. cheese. at least for a while? CW: Maybe Joe's guys are different. Most skinny guys I know are eating junk food for the hell of it. I'll eat eight whole eggs at a time and take in a lot of avocadoes. Carbs have gotten such a bad rap over the past few years that it's absolutely ridiculous. We tell them they can't eat too much or have too many meals in a day. Where the hell are the carbs? All that protein needs to repair the muscle. TM: Interesting stuff. 30 percent from protein. and making sure they're getting some carbs along with some high-quality protein. I think they should look at exactly where all those calories are coming from. but after I reach that I bulk things up with some healthy fats. then your endocrine system isn't going to function as well and your testosterone production may drop off significantly. too. And it tastes good. A can of it costs a little over a dollar and usually contains something like 75 grams of fat. minerals. I go for about a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight. I'll usually have a full serving of Surge during the workout and another full serving directly after. What do you think. then we put them on a balanced plan where they'll get 40 percent of their calories from carbs. Is it the best? Not really. Your body won't be able to assimilate all that much if you're not focused on the quality of the food. and Flameout. and eating McDonald's or whatever will help them get used to eating big every few hours. They think they're eating a lot because they're chowing down on a lot of high-calorie junk food. and 30 percent from fats. like chicken with a huge pile of brown rice. It's always something that's worked for clients and me. Another good way of adding in healthy fats and sneaking in more calories is adding coconut milk to shakes. And these are all from higher-quality sources. They're really just damaging their long-term health and their progress in the gym. we'll go with a 50-30-20 ratio. and three pieces of chicken for dinner. Hell. TM: What about the idea that skinny guys can get away with eating more junk food. for some of the really skinny guys. But it does teach them to eat big and pack the calories in. and aren't even achieving a caloric surplus. If I take a look at a skinny guy's food log. a burger for lunch. One of the biggest problems with these skinny guys is they avoid carbs like they're scared of them. If your fat consumption drops below 80 grams or so a day.and post-workout nutrition. If I have a rough workout. Craig? CW: I agree about timing. Personally. . not supply energy in place of carbs. VD: I agree with both of you guys. I use about one-fourth of a can at a time. I'll see an omelet for breakfast. I'll then wait 30 minutes and have a high-carb meal. but they're not using these foods as part of an overall system to get bigger.JD: Only at first. but I think people should realize that eating a ton of calories without getting the proper vitamins. and fiber is kind of shooting yourself in the foot. TM: So are carbs and protein the only thing we're concerned about? CW: I think a lot of guys are skimping on their fats. I also eat almond butter with a spoon. In fact one of the biggest things that has led to the most dramatic changes is simply focusing on peri. Once they reach a base point. it's like they have ADD. TM: Good point. But I get a ton of emails where guys tell me they're doing my " Westside for Skinny Bastards" program but throw in Jim Wendler's 5-3-1 template andCharles Staley's EDT combined with some of Thibaudeau's techniques. you should know to change the days around. VD: The first thing I want say is that "do what works for you" is some bullshit advice for beginners. Guys need a plan. then do some backstrokes. and do them all at once. You don't need to email or call him and ask if it's okay. and should have the ability to tweak the program to his needs. but I think guys need to find a great program. When you figure out what works for your body. Too many guys try so many fucking programs at once. like if he could be getting omega-3 eggs instead of normal ones. I'll have him look at the little details. or hypertrophy. "You're fucked. if your back is your weakest muscle group and you know you should be prioritizing it. I'm going to have him go back and examine every single meal before we do anything else. TM: That's an excellent point and one most guys wouldn't even consider. I really believe that maximal strength builds the foundation for all the other goals guys have." If you combine 20 different great programs. And I think once you make all those changes. Vince. JD: I agree completely. See what you learn about your body during that time and gain some leverage.600. You have to stick to one thing for a while. It's like Michael Phelps telling an eight-year-old that if you feel like doing backstrokes today. I think they should have the courage to make their own decisions. So it's a bit of a cliché. If you're eating enough and busting your ass. and they need to know the principles that are going to contribute to the majority of their results.000 calories a day. Joe. A lot of guys are jumping from one program to the next with no new knowledge about how their bodies respond to each stimulus. In fact. endurance. They need a program and guidelines. . VD: Right on! But here's something else to consider: After the guys have followed great programs for a couple of years or so. if you were to use the "Skinny Bastards" template and constantly tweak the exercises and set and rep scheme. you could stay on that program the rest of your life. then you're going to get bigger and stronger if you've got a decent plan in place. Give it a solid eight to 12 weeks and I guarantee you'll get results. A guy should know what applies to his body and what doesn't. and we want him to get up to 3. Don't jump around too much. then you can easily tweak the next program you do. Max-effort training is still the best way to get stronger and look better. Kick us off. and stick to it for at least 12 weeks. and you're following an awesome program from Thibaudeau that says to do chest at the beginning of the week and back on the last day of the week. trust it. I write back and say. Let's talk training for the skinny guys.Let's say a client of mine is eating 3. strength." Do you still train athletes with that basic template? JD: It's evolved over time. you've written three different versions of "Westside for Skinny Bastards. You should know your body better than he does. or if he could eat organic vegetables instead of the ones with all the pesticides. but the bulk of the workout is the same. you're going to get shitty results. Most of the programs out there work if you train hard enough. They have to know when to work on technique. then you can increase the actual calories. For example. I also don't think that a skinny guy should worry about single-joint or isolation movements if he only weighs 160 pounds. front squat.But don't get me wrong — I do high-rep stuff with the skinny guys. I also think guys need to spend more time on their lower body. it's gotta be your ass. they'll respond better to higher reps — six to 12. You're getting a great anabolic response because you're moving something heavy. three or four times a week is all they need in the gym. reverse hypers. or we're doing some intervals. Your rhomboids or your medial deltoids just don't merit that much attention when you're that skinny. and if they do. The answer is really right in the middle. A lot of kids will gain 15 to 20 pounds within a two-month period by just focusing more on their legs. But skinny guys are usually more slow-twitch. It was like a light bulb went off in the heads of thousands of guys. . We're not swimming or jogging here. We're going to push-press it. and not encouraging your body to become smaller or more efficient. We're going to move heavy. it's the shit they see in the mirror. That's another reason why my conditioning stuff is usually posterior-chain and lower-body dominant. and I actually have to convince them not to come to the gym on their off days. I also want to point out that I don't think a guy's results are necessarily from a specific method. and everything else. Even if our equipment is nothing more than a rock on a beach. It's definitely true most guys don't train their legs. If you take a genetic-freak athlete who's absolutely jacked and did a muscle biopsy. fast. we're going to use it to stimulate as much of our bodies as we can. for sure. Hell. These guys respond very well to max-effort movements. With my clients. Because they're not as neurologically efficient. So I give a lot of credit to Louie Simmons. loading the spine. TM: Joe. and quads. My facility attracts really motivated guys. If you feel like you could train every day. Maximal strength. Care to share? JD: Allow me to steal a line from Alwyn Cosgrove when I say people either overreact or underreact to everything in the fitness industry. who really popularized hamstring training through box squats. but rather an internalization and adherence to a few basic principles. CW: I agree with what Joe's talking about. as Joe points out. you'd see a predominance of type IIB muscle fibers. In terms of frequency. loading the spine and doing heavy squats and deadlift variations has really caused a tremendous anabolic response. We're not going to do curls with the rock. More time. But then guys stopped training quads altogether for fear of being "unbalanced. and frequently. TM: Wouldn't conditioning be the last thing on a skinny guy's mind? Wouldn't that burn too many calories? CW: The type of conditioning I do is so dependent on strength that I haven't seen any muscle loss from it at all. I know you've got some interesting thoughts on lower-body training." For an athlete. hamstrings. is huge. and throw it overhead as far as we can and then sprint to it. the quads are just as important as the hamstrings. We're moving heavy things for a repeated effort and more reps. you're probably not training correctly. if you want three muscle groups that will put some size on your body. especially the quads. Not equal time. or a guy who's trying to look good. they have to drop down and do 20 push-ups and polish it off with a Metabolic Drive protein bar. but who cares? Carry a protein bar with you wherever you go and I guarantee you'll never be hungry.I'm a huge fan of single-leg movements like Bulgarian split squats and barbell reverse lunges. Wherever they're at. start with weights that are five pounds heavier than you did last week. Joe. But it's only temporary. but in a strength phase your primary focus should be lifting as much weight as possible. Your greatest enemy is thinking too much. but the weight just pours on. you need to focus more on what you experience during those reps. It's definitely easier to maintain and keep growing once you've achieved your base. and on accomplishing more total work. Take whatever program you're following. I want my guy completely out of his comfort zone. baddest tip for skinny guys looking to shed their medium-size T-shirts for good. TM: Damn. Are you going to go into debt again after you've worked so hard to get to that point? Gaining appreciable amounts of muscle requires doing things that may be considered obsessive by your friends. last question. It sucks and it's hard as hell. When you get where you want to be. that's messed up. anything to add here? VD: I think it's really important to alternate a strength phase with a volume phase every three to six weeks. But it's kind of like saving up a million bucks. . The only thing I want you to track is your rest period. CW: Something that I've done before with my guys is to give them a cheap watch with a countdown timer that goes off every two hours. and to focus on biofeedback cues. But when you switch to the volume phase. Use a stopwatch and keep it honest. What about you Vince? VD: If I could make a blanket rule. holding dumbbells to their sides or a barbell on their back. Let's eliminate that altogether and focus on training intensely to stimulate growth. TM: All right. and do as many reps as possible for each set. TM: Wrap us up. but it's an all-out war in the gym and the kitchen until then. Sure. TM: Vince. Give my your biggest. Craig. I'd have all skinny guys stop counting reps and stop following a tempo. It may cause you to re-examine your social life and your daily habits. If you walk into my gym at any hour I guarantee you're going to see someone with their back leg on a bench. You shouldn't really care about how heavy it is. It may sound simple. you'll have a completely different mindset. You've got to focus on how strong you're feeling and not worry about how much of a "pump" you're getting. but how heavy it feels. Really try to establish that mind-muscle connection. I think one of the most important things to realize is that you're going to have to work your ass off to get where you want to be. It's okay if you don't finish the workout and end up vomiting in the washroom after 10 minutes. you'll look stupid doing pushups in the middle of Sears. guys . It also helps with their recovery. But no puking! You'll lose precious calories. TM: Awesome tips. I don't care what they eat — anything goes. Thanks for participating. I recommend doing the Hour of Power on Wednesday and Sunday. or any other day you have off from lifting and can afford to be a bit sluggish for a few hours. I want my skinny guys to do what I call Hour of Power. This means for the duration of one hour they have to shove as much food as they can into their body without puking.JD: Two meals per week. I've found this caloric influx two times per week actually helps skinny guys shock their muscles into growing. " And so it began. "Soyboy" is not an appropriate way to greet our colleagues. But the carb discussion never came. carbohydrates were conventionally classified structurally as simple or complex. "let's be happy with what we've done. "I think that's a great idea. "Well. how could we neglect the carbohydrate? The more I thought about it. Fortunately. After those two articles. and a diet Coke. After all. I recently received an unexpected phone call that put us in motion. we invited Cy Willson to share in an interesting protein discussion. I was getting pretty tired of carrying the both of you during that last one! So why don't we get started? Since Jared's stepped into the can and it's been thirty minutes. As most people know. in his words. many of you waited anxiously for the inevitable carb discussion. those tasty carbs make up a full third of the macronutrient triumvirate. here we are again. weight-loss icon or not. You see. I'm not waiting a second longer for that guy." he replied.The Carbohydrate Roundtable. What's left to do?" To which I replied. We need to bow out now while we're at the top of our game!" While I agreed with Lonnie's sentiment at the time. The call was from weight loss icon Jared Vogle. "set us straight" and to "teach us a thing or two about applied nutrition. Let's quickly cover some familiar ground regarding carbohydrates. Waz up wit dat? Well. Lonnie and I debated whether we should go ahead with a carb roundtable or just retire from roundtable action while still at our peak. And by the way. I hope you guys have been studying up over the last few years. barbs. but these distinctions are relatively useless in terms of predicting the physiological response associated with consuming them. Feeling accomplished in our roundtable careers. let's try to be nice to Jared. Berardi It's been nearly two years since Lonnie Lowery and I teamed up to get our macronutrient roundtable on. I'll be straight with you." "A carbohydrate roundtable?" I replied with a sly grin while putting Jared on speakerphone and calling Lonnie and Cy into my office. Eric Noreen joined us for an extremely informative discussion on dietary fats. Jared. he can just jump in when he comes back. John Berardi: Well Lonnie and Cy. Many of you may know him as the guy who lost like 3. what about carbs?" "Carbs. In Lonnie's words. he was hoping to be included in the next roundtable article to. Lonnie and I were quite happy with our work. "We've done fat. If we really wanted to etch our place among the nutritional greats we had one more thing to accomplish. Cy. Can you guys explain why? . those articles had propelled us toward roundtable celebrity and we didn't want to risk our place in roundtable history by tempting the gods with another roundtable article. Back when we finished the first two roundtables. Next. First. a small bag of potato chips. the more I realized we'd made a mistake. After all. two years after our last roundtable.000 pounds by eating two fresh Tubway sandwiches per day. Jared was calling to comment on the fact that we were missing a carbohydrate roundtable and that since he disagreed with nearly everything we wrote in the protein and fat roundtables (both in theory and obviously in practice)." Jared also commented that he printed out our previous roundtable discussions and read them while enjoying a "delicious low-fat Tubway sandwich. We've done protein. Part 1 Moderated by John M. for the last two years I haven't been able to shake this strange feeling that our decision was hasty. teaching someone to avoid table sugar (sucrose) only gets him so far. pre-packaged. once hydrolyzed. the pathway forms undue amounts of acetyl Co-A that are ultimately made into triglycerides. Individual monosaccharide units (generally glucose. in more scientific terms. The problem with these distinctions? Well. fructose and galactose) can be treated just as differently by the body as longer chains thereof. insulin is a potent lipogenic hormone (fat building or generating) and if insulin levels are raised for a prolonged period of time. Fructose. But now so much sugar is hidden in processed foods and beverages that the "complex vs. you're calling the issue of carb complexity "useless"? That's pretty harsh. polysaccharides. would be the most beneficial in terms of health and improving body composition. it's merely a very long chain of glucose molecules that. for example. had classically been described as either "complex" or "simple" in terms of their structure. it's mostly true nowadays. Cy. As we know. structural nomenclature such as monosaccharides. they assumed that fructose. form free glucose or dextrose and cause a very high insulin response. yummy and artificial) choices. fructose. since glucose or fructose are monosaccharides. of course. you can study this. Cy Willson: Well. they were classified as "simple" and thus were thought to be bad for you. Now we have complex carbs that are heinous just as there are situations when good ol' simple sugars are great. is itself lipogenic. In other words. Fructose. even though both are monosaccharides. It's a source of "empty calories" as well as possessing some metabolically unfavorable effects. this doesn't allow lipolysis (fat breakdown) to occur. processed and refined that these choices don't offer the fiber and other nutrients they once did. I do think historically there was some value to steering people away from simple carbs like table sugar. Overall. a monosaccharide. is absorbed at the intestinal wall more slowly (facilitated diffusion) than glucose (active transport). but yeah.] Just had to get that out of my system. [Lonnie makes an inappropriate grab at his "package". fructose can also enter glycolysis (the metabolic pathway used to break down sugars in our cells) in such a way as to bypass its rate-limiting step. complex carbs have become just as big a problem now. when you take a look at starch. simple" distinction is less applicable to the average Joe. That is. Thus a person will gain fat. how 'bout explaining the difference between what one might consider simple vs. Without enzymatic control (PFK for those who care). complex carbohydrates or. monosaccharides vs. which contain many linked units of monosaccharides. at least in application to real world (read as: fast.Lonnie Lowery: First. JB: Right you are. polysaccharides. . was terrible since it should cause a high release of insulin. So. Complexity is just one way to classify a carbohydrate molecule. with this reasoning. I guess what I'm saying is that the simplistic notion of "complex equals good" and "simple equals bad" once had merit. a polysaccharide that is found in foods like rice.. In the liver. Dr. JB. potatoes. but has become rather archaic. they said that starch. Secondly. For example. The more linked units there were. etc. despite slower absorption and lesser insulin response. That's quite different from the way glucose is metabolized. JB: Why is that? LL: So many complex carbohydrate foods are stripped. oligosacchardies and lastly. With this same reasoning. the more "complex" it was considered and the better it was for you in terms of insulin release and overall health. JB: Olestra. fructose on the other hand doesn't require insulin in order to be stored as glycogen and thus it causes a very small increase in insulin secretion. the glycemic index. I just wanted to say that those chips with the olestra are awesome! I can eat and eat all that I want and not gain weight. In other words. And people say I don't know my nutritional physiology! When it comes to good nutrition. Jared. is a complex carbohydrate that digests more quickly than straight glucose (a simple carbohydrate) while causing more dramatic increases in blood sugar and blood insulin. sorry I'm late. Anyway. put simply. as the fat won't absorb so you only get the awesome nutritional benefits of potato chips! As we know. help me get back on track here. Jared: Good. Jared: Olestra! Funny that you mention that since I've got some olestra chips right here in my Tubway bag. how about… no. I know it's essential to eat something low fat and deliciously healthy to keep my heart rate up. Captain Olestra. those carbs are so good for you and they won't make you gain weight! Those potato chip manufacturers are sheer geniuses. is a scale of how rapidly ingested carbs enter the bloodstream as glucose. consuming whole wheat bread would be better than white bread due to the fibrous carbohydrates contained in the bread.Now. complex). It's one of the factors determining insulin response and metabolism of the substrate. yeah. I choose to stop at Tubway. However. 'cause if there's one thing I think we all agree on. while theoretically sound. Also. simple vs. Maltodextrin. they failed to consider the fact that fiber slows down the rate of digestion and thus allows for a smaller release of insulin. Do you guys mind if I eat while we do this roundtable thing? JB: Go for it. CW: You're certainly a nutritional genius. it's the importance of a good post-workout meal. don't forget the fact that classical distinctions leaned toward recommending complex carbs because nutritionists assumed that a long polysaccharide (many simple sugars joined together) would take longer to digest than a simple sugar and therefore would lead to a more gradual and lasting blood glucose response with a smaller insulin response. Enter the glycemic and insulin indices….e. making it better than starch in terms of the insulin response. just entering the room: Hey guys. LL: Um. an apple is better for you than a bowl of rice. JB: Hey guys. I'd have all my food deep-fried in olestra. good for you? Um. Jared. I had to stop at Tubway to grab a low fat sandwich. this just doesn't pan out for many "complex" foods. If it were up to me. In other words. You see. Therefore it appears that classifying carbohydrates according to how they're processed in the body presents a better way to look at carbs than classifying them according to their structural characteristics (i. This would make "complex" carbs a wise nutritious choice. Since I just finished a grueling twenty-five minute walk. it's a rather neat thing. . Lonman. for example. The insulin index. there'll be some exceptions. The truth is that the glycemic index is pretty much a moot point as we rarely consume a single type of starch or any other substrate. in a recent JAMA review (May 8. regardless of the other macronutrient constituents. In addition. as I've discussed elsewhere at T-mag. Ludwig in that meals containing a high GI carb.the glycemic response to mixed meals can be predicted with reasonable accuracy from the glycemic index of constituent foods when standard methods are used. if we're concerned about blood sugar and insulin. fruit. 2002) conducted by Dr. and potatoes. Mixed meals (with protein. I think the GI (and II — insulin index) can help us predict. But overall I think the GI (and II) offers a bit more predictive power than you suggest. This will allow a higher GI carb to be eaten without the large burst in blood glucose. we can use the two to pick a food that has both a low GI and doesn't cause much of a release of insulin. guys. and insulin — belongs in my Axis of Evil. whereas the glycemic index measures the glucose response to the ingested food. Shall we get back to measures of insulin and glucose response? I think it's important to use a combination of both the GI and II of foods to plan our diets. This stuff isn't new. Co-ingestion of fat or protein lowers the glycemic index of individual foods somewhat but does not change their hierarchical relationship with regard to glycemic index." Based on the literature. most refined starchy foods eaten in the United States have a high glycemic index. as demonstrated by the insulin index. Brown potatoes. Exercise isn't all that healthy sometimes. Just like Jared. LL: Right. Sometimes my vigorous walks give me the runs.JB: But not the only factor that determines insulin response. . with some accuracy. care to comment? JB: Let me jump in here for a second. I think I agree to some extent with Dr. Okay. One thing I can't understand are those individuals who want to reduce the glycemic index of a food by adding in fat. Cy or Jared. bread. Despite initial concerns. JB: Right. While I agree that the GI only offers numbers for a single food. various carbs and fats) result in way different glycemic and insulinogenic responses. CW: Hurry. Another strategy to modulate the response is to take a food that may rank fairly high in terms of causing an insulin release and add in some sort of soluble fiber to slow the absorption of glucose in the intestine. how our bodies will handle a mixed meal. Jared! Run! I'm sure glad we included him in our roundtable. Of course. Essentially. Trickle down of such knowledge to dietitians and the general public has taken some time. in fact. whereas nonstarchy vegetables. Now back to the disparities between structural distinctions (simple and complex) and physiological responses… As with monosaccharides. he stated that "In general. that combination — high blood carbs. There's considerable variation between rice. for example.measures the direct insulin response to an ingested food. Jared? Cy? Jared: [still crunching his olestra-laced chips] Uh. There were investigators reporting on these differences even back in the late 70s. fat. however. Ludwig. and legumes tend to have a low glycemic index. I'll be right back. we see large variations in the way the body handles various starches (technically. will promote higher blood glucose responses than the same meal containing a low GI carb. complex carbs). are very similar in glycemic and insulinogenic response to simple glucose. I don't disagree for a moment that Dr. argumentative beast. LL: Nope. which also confound any religious interpretation of the glycemic index. first you guys cite research to imply that the GI holds regardless of co-consumption and now Cy suggests that adding soluble fiber is the ticket for controlled delivery. Maintaining a hierarchy in relation to other carb foods. Again. Listen. I've got more to say. JB: I'll agree with what you said there. veggies. total caloric load. In either case. so should we conclude that hammers are useless? I've gotta get that nail in somehow so until that day. etc. One day there may be a better way to hammer in a nail. If a car is going fast enough to endanger pedestrians (say 50 mph). If another car (carb type) is slowed from 30 mph down to 20 mph due to co-consumed foods. hammerhead. etc. etc. Indulgence in yummy refined starches (in any food combination) over unrefined carbs (legumes. although I think John is just getting sassy and he sees my point. most fruits. then slowing it down even 10 miles per hour helps reduce the risk (in this case screaming blood sugar). the individual glycemic index is mostly a moot point. one day there may be a better one. Of course. Ludwig's new data are interesting but slower entry into the blood stream still matters physiologically. it holds — relative to other foods.LL: Okay. The overall composition of a meal still matters regarding both humoral glucose and insulin responses (and thus nutrient partitioning). We've got a way to classify carbohydrates that works fairly well (the GI). Add fiber to a food with a GI of 90 and fiber to a food with a GI of 70 and the 90 might become 70 and the 70 might become 50. LL: Okay. Of course. Using low GI foods all the time is the best way to make the GI a moot point for sure! . except for the car stuff because I couldn't figure it out. it's not a huge deal. whole grains. but for now it'll do the job. milk products. schmiearchy— you guys are basically making an academic distinction. solidity. you're both acknowledging that dietary fat affects the insulin response. JB: But it's the best we've got to go on. Although I accept that Ludwig's new data are valid." Why not just avoid refined starches and sugars pretty much all the time except for during and after exercise? Human beings aren't genetically programmed to handle too much of that stuff! Besides. all nutrition guidelines already suggest foods that happen to be low-GI (whole grains. I say hierarchy. both in their delivery and their insulinogenic response. I'll use my hammer. But now you're dragging us into that "academic" debate that you didn't want to get into so let's just leave it at that. the fact remains that various carbs are indeed affected. Regardless of coconsumption the hierarchy remains. And that's to say nothing of frequent feedings. I'm gonna get ornery just to make the point that the GI debate is a longstanding one. legumes. I think the practical interpretation of the (now becoming infamous) "Ludwig data" is obvious.) is for guys who do twenty five minute walks as their "training session. thank you very much! It's the same here.) So again. fat content. means little physiologically. in itself. co-consumption matters. Isn't that coconsumption? I have to think that regardless of a "maintained hierarchy" among glycemic indices. So which is it? JB: Now you're just being a hairy. But beyond that. great. by factors such as soluble fiber. Cy Willson. I suppose! JB: Picking fights again. Last week. Lonnie Lowery. as might Gymnema Sylvestre.CW: As I said earlier. John Berardi. Whether this is cautionary or opportunistic depends upon one's mindset. You could also use the drug metformin. When last we left them. metformin might help. LL: Metformin! John. as one of its mechanisms of action may be slowing and/or reducing intestinal glucose absorption. soluble fiber? Just as the rate of absorption is a major factor in terms of protein accretion via ingestion of a protein supplement (casein). Let's talk: • Monosaccharides. are single unit monosaccharides that. . they were about to start explaining the differences between individual types of carbohydrates. I think the same thing applies in terms of keeping plasma insulin levels low in response to ingestion of a food. you Bigfoot? Let's move right along. fructose and glucose (dextrose) • Disaccharides.e. maltodextrin • Food additive high fructose corn syrup • Polysaccharide starches. while structurally very similar." why not add in a substance that will slow down digestion and absorption of glucose but at the same time doesn't possess any caloric value. Consuming a fair amount of fiber with each meal should accomplish this. with carbohydrate classification schemes out of the way (and hopefully most of Lonnie's argumentative streak). instead of John's "Axis of Evil. You're right Cy-Borg. sometimes sugar alcohol (depending on whether bar manufacturers want to disguise carb content or not) glycerol Fructose and glucose. cellulose • The sometimes carb. it's worth mentioning that a recent article in said journal lists metformin as vastly over-prescribed. lactose and sucrose • Polysaccharide. let's address some of the individual types of carbohydrate floating around the nutrition and supplement worlds and discuss how they might or might not fit into a good nutritional regime. amylose and amylopectin • Polysaccharide fiber. and that annoying Jared kid from the TV commercials discussed different aspects of carbohydrate metabolism. i. as seen earlier. hide your Glucophage! JB: Stand back everyone! He's making the transformation from the mild mannered Cy Willson to the indestructible Cy-Borg! LL: Since John's pulling JAMA articles on us. Listen. behave very differently in the body. And by the way. I'm feelin' better now! I'd better cut my walks back down to fifteen minutes. Jared: Hey. it doesn't stimulate insulin secretion to any large extent. glucose is more rapidly absorbed in the GI and tends to elicit higher blood glucose and insulin responses. This makes glucose ingestion ideal for situations where rapid digestion or energy provision is required (during exercise. vegetables. on the other hand. Got anything to contribute? Jared: Lactose? Um. You guys really know your stuff. I just heard someone talking about Fructopia. lactose is a disaccharide consisting of glucose joined to galactose. In the liver. but even from the more lipogenic high fructose corn syrup and from sucrose. That's one of my fave drinks. a moderate daily intake of fructose. Fructose is found naturally in many fruits. Glucose is found as a monosaccharide in fruits. for example. I think that's the stuff in milk that gives me gas. In my opinion. fructose is metabolized and can replenish glycogen (liver only) or can form triglycerides. o' baggy skinned one! You must be lactose intolerant and can't produce enough of the intestinal enzyme lactase. the best answer is that it all depends on how much fructose you ingest. the lipogenic effects should probably be considered. However. like lactose. a glucose and a fructose joined together). Just be sure not to consume fructose around exercise time. Right now I was just about to talk about polysaccharides. but in Western society most people get fructose from processed foods containing high fructose corn syrup. and honey as well as many manufactured sports drinks. Fructose. It has been shown time and time again to cause GI distress. post exercise) but not so great for the remainder of the day when stable blood sugar and insulin are desirable. especially from fruits. during a hypoglycemic episode. is metabolized differently due to its structure. Since lactose is too large to be absorbed in the . which is in fact. the great debate among nutritionists has been whether the low insulin response is enough to outweigh the inevitable formation of some triglycerides. berries and honey (foods that I highly encourage consumption of) as well as some dietary supplements. Due to the fact that fructose doesn't cause a substantial rise in blood sugar (it's too busy filling liver glycogen stores and creating triglycerides). JB: Good to know. Most blood glucose doesn't come from glucose ingestion but from other dietary carbohydrates that are eventually broken down into glucose.As Lonman mentioned. You see. With a very high daily consumption of fructose (from lots of fruit. and cause higher serum cortisol levels when consumed in conjunction with exercise. Jared. is encouraged. JB: That's right. Now. increase ratings of exertion. on with the show… JB: Thanks for sharing your "tale. Steve Hertzler. Maltodextrin is shorter than the other two but still longer than mono and disaccharides. You guys are losing me. is a disaccharide that's formed when glucose and fructose join. Fermented dairy products usually have very little lactose remaining as the lactose is converted to lactic acid. maltodextrin. diarrhea. they have less than six grams of fat! And by the way. why is that Cy dude growling at me? JB: Just don't make any sudden movements. subjects' training status.intestines. Lactose is found in dairy products. Therefore. The primary differences are in their structure. Initial glycogen stores. The difficulty in summarizing the legions of carbohydrate type-exercise studies lies in the different protocols. Only the amylose was inferior. like our friend Jared. "distress" sets in. when sucrose is digested. Amylopectin is rather like glycogen ("animal carbohydrate") but with fewer branches. Actually. a study by Costill's group in 1996 revealed twenty-four hour glycogen resynthesis rates in muscle to be in the order of glucose > amylopectin > maltodextrin > amylose ("resistant starch"). If you're lactose intolerant. high fructose corn syrup. oranges comparisons. I just don't get it. So many factors make for apples vs. causing gas. yogurt contains enzymes that help in the digestion of lactose. LL: Johnman. Other data suggest that glucose polymers may be slightly superior regarding performance. go ahead. Jared. by far. If not. occur in cereals. He found that most maldigesters can handle up to six or seven grams (half cup of milk) before. why don't you tackle maltodextrin. legumes and other veggies. As far as application to athletes. Jared: Hold on a second. the first three groups were similar statistically and subsequent exercise performance wasn't different among groups. however. and the starches amylose and amylopectin? Then Cy can wrap up with cellulose and glycerol. and bloating.000 pounds and don't even know what those words are! Just how much maltopectin or whatever is in one of those yummy Veggie Delight sandwiches? You know. straight chains of glucose units whereas amylopectin is a branched polymer. exercise modality. faster gastric emptying during exercise). Lowery. I mean. uh. In addition. Sucrose is." Back to sucrose. with highest concentrations in milk. the lactose just sits around in the GI tract fermenting. like lactose. The man has actually put rubber britches on his subjects. the most abundant source of dietary carbohydrate in the Western world and while its glycemic index is lower than that of glucose. solids. you should avoid lactose. amylose. it can have both a high glycemic index and be lipogenic. I feel like I've got to interject a little anecdote. That's good information but its acquisition takes a dedicated hombre. amylose and amylopectin. did some practical research on lactose intolerance back in 1996. complete with gas collection valves! Ugh! I sometimes wonder: what career paths lead one to becoming a flatulence researcher? Okay. I lost 3. Dr. LL: Okay. This conclusion stems from their decreased osmolality (in this case. Just as I recommended saying no to fructose around exercise. therefore. perhaps sucrose intake should be moderated by anyone interested in their body composition. Lonnie. it's still substantially higher than fructose. sorry. and amylopectin are polyglucose molecules. and even temperature affect the research. potatoes. I think this should extend to sucrose as well. Both forms of starch. Otherwise. drinks vs. Trends can . it's probably okay since it has a low GI and II. it must be broken down into glucose and galactose for absorption. Not a great combination. One of my acquaintances. Sucrose. Amylose consists of long. with amylose usually contributing 15 to 20% or so and amylopectin comprising the other 80 to 85% of total starch. Why can't people just forget about that rumor? It's a lie. the glucose units are joined by 1. John's already slammed the wicked glucose-fructose combination and this sweet syrup (fructose being 2. if one day we can eat grass. . unlike glycogen or amylopectin. I was just testing you. Jared. despite the discrepancies. don't you Jared? Jared: Wait just a second! Are you trying to say I'm a cow or that I get intimate with cows? Because if that's what you're saying. Perhaps most important is that para and post-exercise feedings are the key time to heed the GI and drink rapidly-digested/absorbed carbohydrates like glucose. Cellulose is a polysaccharide that. The main thing to realize is that we humans don't possess beta-glucosidases. Glycerol is classically described as a hygroscopic. many glucose units jointed together). huh. which simply means that it contains three hydroxyl groups and is able to take up moisture out of the air and retain it. Sensitive. is an unbranched polymer of glucose (again. 64 oz. I tell you! A filthy lie! CW: No. Next is high fructose corn syrup. So what does this mean? We can't digest cellulose and thus we consider it a "fiber.4-a-glycosidic bonds and to a lesser extent 1. Oh. super-sized container. trihydroxy alcohol.000+ year-old genetic blueprint stumped. syrupy liquid that has a very distinct sweet taste. What can I say? Many folks live on this stuff (fructose is a full 5% of the average American's diet) and they wonder why they're fat. that's not what I meant at all. Mr. Instead. however. These are enzymes that catalyze the hydrolysis of the bonds (break the bond) at the C-1 (beta configuration) position of each glucose unit. In cellulose.) That kind of manmade excess leaves your 40.be seen. just like the cows.. it's no wonder that such drinks can quickly add up to hundreds of lipogenic kcal. (By the way. CW: Good job. so much for the GI as a tool for judging the beneficence of a carbohydrate food. we possess alpha glucosidases. Luckily. Jared: Oh. animals like cows have certain symbiotic microorganisms in their rumen or their "first stomach" and thus are able to digest the cellulose in grass and things of that nature. if anyone cares. I still look forward to the day where I can eat grass. I'll finish off the rest. With those properties in mind. talk about low fat! CW: We can't wait. Not that it only appears in drinks — it's pervasive! When one considers that there's about one teaspoon worth (4 grams) of sugar per ounce of sweetened beverage. Lonnie. galactose. it's easy to see why those manufacturers were putting it into bars in order to keep them sweetened as well as provide some texture and moisture. change of topic… You know.5 fold sweeter than glucose) offers it in a rapidly consumable. and on a side note. also has the anomeric carbon possessing beta configuration at the C-1 position. the GI of sucrose is only 59 and fructose is just 20 on a 100 scale. which allow us to hydrolyze starches to d-glucose. The only problem was that they weren't counting the carb content since it's not a carbohydrate but instead an alcohol. I bet Tubway will be the first to come out with grass sandwiches. Uh. which is one of the two sugars in lactose. if memory serves. Sometimes I'm amazed that we can process it at all without ending up in some kind of glucosuric coma. Next topic — glycerol. I'll discuse the importance of this in a second." That's right.6-alpha-glycosidic bonds. It's also a clear. Baby.4-beta-glycosidic bonds. The function of these enzymes would be to break down cellulose into a bunch of free glucose molecules. whereas starch and glycogen are linked mainly by 1. cellulose is the "fiber" contained in the various plants that you consume. it's not true. Essentially. Jared! JB: I've written about glycerol in a previous "Appetite for Construction" column and the bottom line was that it can certainly be converted into a carb (for every 10 grams of glycerol you may get somewhere around 3 grams of glucose). I suggest no more than their body weight in grams. except for a few key times. Based on available literature. equaling about 100 grams of carbs). yams. for example. instead I'd suggest around 250 grams or less. etc. I'd suggest consuming foods that are high in fiber and don't cause much of an insulin release. so be it. then at midmorning (another 100 grams or so). Foods like oldfashioned oatmeal. for those trying to "gain weight" I've used a simple formula of three or four times the person's bodyweight in carbs. this does leave some room for variation depending on the person's body fat levels. I'm sticking to my "skinny bastard" recommendations. our brains prefer glucose as a fuel. consuming foods that elicit a significant increase in plasma insulin levels and continually doing this throughout the day. I try to minimize carbs in the evening but still probably eat about 50 grams worth.e. leads me to a rough preference for 50% of one's caloric intake. For those trying to reduce body fat stores. proper timing of carb intake for different populations. I'm not going to suggest 350 grams per day. For instance. It's that anabolic sledgehammer thing Lonnie has talked about. when it comes to a guy who's 350 at 25% body fat. I'd like to hear each of your rules on carb intake. The other meals I'd cut back by half. so to speak. as a beverage). And for those trying to reduce body fat stores. Okay. if the guy is 150 pounds then at least 450 to 600 grams of carbs need to be ingested every day. a few weeks) to see changes. As for the actual intake of carbs. percent carbs in the diet for different populations. Now. how many grams of carbs per day for different populations. I'd probably confine my large carb meals (100g or so) to breakfast and post-exercise. when you consider the calorie content of the glycerol in those bars. Of course. Just keep in mind that this is my method of utilizing a "starting point" . I personally consume the majority of my carbs at breakfast (whole grain cereals with milk. and finally during and post-exercise (another 100 grams with protein. at lunch (another 100 grams or so). Can it be true that we don't need any? I'm continually amazed at how adaptable the human body is. along with other requirements. These just can't be reduced without consequences.Well. flax pancakes. that's fine provided that you inform customers that glycerol still has a caloric value and thus you should keep track of it just as you would any macronutrient. LL: Interestingly. In other words. you know. so a 210 pound guy at 12 to 15% body fat shouldn't be consuming more than 210 grams of carbs per day. In other words. they'd be better off using sucrose. now that some of the biochemistry is out of the way. If this sounds boring. I'm a big believer in moderation and allowing adequate time (i. don't combine it with sulfuric acid. why don't we get down to the nitty gritty. I suggest minimizing carb intake for the most part. My suggestion would be to stay away from glycerol and whatever you do. This was a very misleading and shady thing to do. etc. which. oatmeal. etc. certain fruits. CW: For those trying to gain muscle mass. therefore it's not necessarily calorie or carb-free. Muscle glycogen stores can replenish quite well without post workout carbs. the necessity of any carbs at all has been questioned in the scientific literature. If I were trying to lose fat. With these people. sometimes weekly.5-. I'd recommend what Lonnie does — tapering off carbs as the day goes on. I tend to go with Cy's recommendations for a rough estimate. Jared: Know what I like? Those little squeezy bottles full of sauces at Tubway. These numbers are a great starting point. nuts. after all I've taught you today. I tend to think that concept is a bit too gimmicky and offers little value because if you're trying to gain mass. If you want to gain weight and have a fast metabolic rate. For a more definitive one. I don't make the morning vs. This way we have a level that's usually tolerable at the beginning and will still allow for fat loss. you're probably not going to lose fat. it doesn't matter if you're eating 40-30-30 when your total kcal intake is less than 2000kcal. how cool is that? JB: Jared! Pay attention! Any closing remarks? Jared: Uh. low II. I think my work is done here. Now.as it always works well. One strategy I often use for weight loss involves setting protein and fat intake constant (at about 1. Typically I tend to agree with Lonnie in that carb selections should be unprocessed. I feel the most important times are in the morning upon waking. If you train in the morning. in the middle of the day. a lot of it depends on your goals.5g/lb (300 grams for a 200 pound person) while fat. Again. we can adjust that particular intake accordingly. As per the definition. high GI. processed foods. As far as how many carbs to eat when bulking up or losing weight. Therefore. I consume a post-workout drink with carbs. if you're eating a breakdown of 40-30-30 but 4000kcal. But if you train in the evening. If you want to lose weight then the most important times to eat your carbs are probably the first meal of the day and then after training. As discussed in my article. at which time I'll start to increase the protein and fat again. My "Lean Eatin'" article here at T-mag gives a more thorough discussion of this. You know. these foods should make up about 80% of your daily carb fare with the additional 20% coming from high GI post-workout foods that help replenish glycogen (during periods of weight gain and during the early stages of weight loss). since I didn't invite any of the low-carb gurus to participate. after the evening workout. Therefore your carb choices should be low GI. I'd eat carbs after the workout to help with replenishment and recovery. I also need some form of carb during the afternoon to ensure that my glycogen stores are at least partially full by the time I workout in the evening. a starting point is where you start. this portion of the roundtable will be debate free. depending on the individual as well as their goals. As far as macronutrient ratios. etc.75g/lb) and then concomitantly reducing carb intake and increasing exercise volume in order to keep the weight loss coming. to maintain the type of progress you're looking for. but mostly carbs. are adjusted slightly up or down based on your goals. whole foods like beans. though. For weight gain I typically just reverse this scenario up to 500 to 600 grams of carbs. grainy. JB: Unfortunately. Lonman puts it best when he states that we simply weren't programmed to eat high sugar. As far as carb timing. carb it all day. Finally. I mean. I personally consume carbs in that fashion during the school year simply because I can't function as well without some form of carbohydrate in the morning. as described above. Let's just all go to Tubway! Come on! . Unlike Lonman.5g/lb and about . Likewise. after initiating the dieting plan. You'll have to make adjustments. I tend to recommend keeping protein relatively constant at about 1. and post workout. go check out my "Massive Eating" calorie calculations. I've got an idea. nighttime distinction since training throws a big monkey wrench into this. whole grains. oats. and unprocessed. In other words.*Note: The names of certain characters and "weight loss" restaurants referred to in this article are almost fictional. Resemblance between them and any real life individual or establishment is purely satirical. don't sue us! We're just funnin' ya! . after the anti-fat surge of the 80s and early 90s. Our goal is to clear up some fat myths. Eric is my lab mate and another PhD candidate who studies with Dr. Berardi During our last roundtable. In addition. We had so much fun I couldn't wait to do another roundtable. Professor Lonnie Lowery. Lonnie Lowery. In addition. A wide range of individuals (some of them being very wide themselves) have asked me for advice about what fats to eat and how much. So when they talk about how monounsaturated fatty acids are incorporated into the phospholipid bilayer of the cell membrane and are less subject to lipid peroxidation due to reduced phospholipase C activity. This surge has provided much of the information we want to share today. Lonnie was screaming about being a real man while whipping out his long. There were no holds barred as we threw out our own personal protein theories and suggestions with extreme prejudice. Bodybuilders and some cutting edge nutritionists are starting to become aware of the basics of fat consumption. yo' momma so fat it takes her two trips to haul ass! . he's definitely as hardcore an athlete as they come. Cy and myself were flipping each other off at each disagreement. People continued to get fatter even though their fat intakes dropped lower and lower. speak in a language that the typical layperson can't understand. Eric is a competitive cyclist who recently competed at the Masters' World Championships in Montreal. Peter Lemon. let's start chewin' the fat! JB: Hey Eric. Although a bit on the thin side. Eric is one hell of a guy and is a great nutrition resource. On top of all of this. Most people were lost at the monounsaturated part. With the theories bouncing around like lotto balls in a billion dollar drawing.Fat Roundtable What's new in fat science? Refereed by John M. but was downright stupid. So now that you know who's who. Quebec. yo' momma so fat she had to get out of bed to roll over. let me tell you about Eric and why you should care what he has to say. polyunsaturated. EN: Oh yeah. These startling repercussions brought about a surge in fat research. That's why I've assembled this roundtable. normal physiological processes like endocrine profiles were being altered. and myself got together to talk protein. You see. What makes it all the more confusing is the fact that scientists. clear up the distinction between the "omega" fatty acids. people began to realize that the elimination of dietary fat from our culture was not only nearly impossible. as usual. and try to have a little fun while doing so. and myself are here to help make sense of the science of fat consumption. it doesn't exactly work. Only this time we'll talk about fat. present some info on saturated. but most individuals still have a long way to go in understanding what all the fat science means. and monounsaturated fats. In the meantime. He especially knows his fats. Since most of you already know myself and Lonnie. we went crazy. Within the last few years there's been a lot of discussion regarding the optimal macronutrient composition of the diet. All in all we had a real blast while giving you guys some practical suggestions for how to use protein to get bigger. Eric Noreen. Cy Willson. cylindrical? pointer to illustrate his points on the graphs and tables he brought along. The two Omega 6s made from LA that are most often talked about are gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) and arachidonic acid (AA). let's just talk about what kinds of dietary fats are out there for public consumption. Then we can talk about what the difference is between them and why some are better than others.LL: Well. safflower oil. JB: All right. we've all heard that before. the omega fats are polyunsaturates. the amounts of omega 3s or 6s found in the body are largely a function of what we eat. Since our bodies don't have the ability to make them. Last are the polyunsaturated fats which are most commonly associated with many vegetable or fish oils. Omega 3s are mainly found in fish oil. As you said. and eggs) that we usually think of as being all saturated can also provide some polyunsaturates. LL: Well. John. corn oil. There are several different omega 3 fatty acids. though. in addition to conventional fatty acids — of which Westerners get an excess of the Omega 6s — there're also dietary lipids that are present in much smaller amounts and have very unique. Hey Eric. they are what they eat. to start off very basic. Animal feed high in corn will produce animals that have high omega 6 fats. both of your mommas are so fat that when I took them out dancing. The two most talked about omega 3s that are made from LNA are eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). LA can be elongated and desaturated in the body to form several other omega 6 fatty acids. and green leafy vegetables. The implications of this are really important for us." why don't we get Lonnie to share some insight about the "special fats" he's had experience with. This better be good! . since you and I have pretty much handled the "conventional fats. Monounsaturated fats are most commonly associated with olive and canola oils. and sesame oil. JB: Drug-like properties? Yeah. drug-like properties. saturated fats are most commonly associated with animal products. peanut oil. the whole band skipped. LNA and the fats made from them are essential for physiological function. LL: In the case of these animals. canola oil. JB: Right! So if we eat meat that was fed a lot of corn. that's easy. dairy. flaxseed oil. This fatty acid can be elongated and desaturated in the body to form several other omega 3 fatty acids. Animals fed natural grasses will be high in omega 3s. The grand daddy of the 6 family is linoleic acid (LA). namely omega 3s and omega 6s? EN: Okay. Omega 6s are mainly found in vegetable oil. and there are several different omega 6 fatty acids. For example. First. the fats from animal products (meat. And so are we. why don't you further elaborate on the polyunsaturated fats. sunflower oil. then we get a diet high in 6s and we also become high in 6s. The level of polyunsaturates and the ratio of 3s to 6s is entirely dependent on what the animals are fed. Just like LNA. walnut oil. The grand daddy of all omega 3s is a fatty acid called alpha-linolenic acid (LNA). The same is the case for 3s. Interestingly. LA. enough of that! Let's get serious! Before we get into actual dietary recommendations. We can get into this later. I need to mention that despite often rigorous dietary and activity controls. Unfortunately most dieticians haven't done this and have made recommendations for the "average" individual or the "average" athlete. John! The researchers thought that lipogenic/lipolytic enzymes as well as certain cytokines were affected by CLA. In addition. Professor. From a practical standpoint. dietary lipids can exhibit a dose-response curve. And although a lot of CLA will work. cancer-free. we'll make recommendations that all athletes can use. is that skeletal muscle protein only accounts for such a small percent of total body weight vs. omega 3s like EPA and DHA. we're not all that different. are you working for Bill Phillips? I remember when he thought that CLA was the next wonder drug. the enzymes that build fat were inhibited while those that release fat were upregulated. Therefore. i. I've yet to see CLA affect fat mass in weight trained men at any dose. What they don't realize. So what happened? LL: Well. Although initial research has been promising regarding muscle mass and strength. But I have some brand spankin' new data from my lab to show that it does have some drug-like effects. we've only seen effects in the lab with 7. Let's get down to dietary recommendations. just you wait and see! In great contrast to the omega 6 linoleate. I'm exaggerating now. more works better.2 to 15 grams per day. EN: Don't leave the cyclists out of this! JB: Okay. Here. Listen. although I know that you're dying to show off your nice little tables. I noticed you cyclists have nice silky shaven legs just like us bodybuilders. it can get expensive. the group that's going to read this article has to be taken into consideration. I want to cover some other important topics first. Too bad you don't get laid as much. in my opinion. but there's enough evidence to get excited. . way more than most folks could afford! Oh. huh? Anyway. Besides. That's news you can take to your mama. hold off for a bit. I guess that's probably because most people think that since muscle mass is protein. conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) was shown in animals to reduce body fat. You see. that's a disappointment! At least it has some other beneficial effects though. then protein intake equals muscle mass. however. anti-carcinogenic and anti-catabolic compounds. hold considerable promise as anti-inflammatory. So listen up all of you nonbelievers! In the past. as well as CLA. although the focus will be on bodybuilders.. and before I go off on my recent data. Mr. In all of this. that's for sure. beefed-up body like that? Of course. but usually fat manipulation is relegated to the health domain. let's tailor this conversation for them. nifty physiologic effects like eating a fat to get lean may be cost prohibitive. When talking about dietary consumption.LL: Oh. since our audience is bodybuilders. JB: Well. CLA crumbled under the unbelievable hype.e. How many nutrients can offer a pain-free. total fat weight. they tend to base their recommendations on the needs of clinical populations like heart disease patients. the poor power athletes of the world have been neglected. analgesic. most bodybuilders get all jacked up about protein manipulation for increased anaerobic performance and muscle mass. It won't pack on mass like D-bol. JB: Oh great. It just doesn't seem to do anything for leaning-out active adult men. It isn't usually discussed from the performance or hypertrophy standpoint. when there's inadequate fat in the diet. Unfortunately. wrestlers. Too many athletes and bodybuilders just don't understand that losing weight and maximizing training are two conflicting ideas as far as your body is concerned. cellular metabolism favors carbohydrate oxidation (burning) during low fat diets and therefore fats are more likely to be stored anyway. The body can't function optimally from the genetic level up to the cellular level and even all the way up to integrative metabolism. In addition. JB: Thanks Eric. EN: That's a good point. With low fat diets. I often marvel at how dieting bodybuilders. which is only 3 lousy grams per serving. I don't care if you're sitting on a bike for four hours per day or pushing up iron. too. and you perform like it. too many athletes ignore the warning signals from their bodies and they continue to push on. Okay. Am I saying that you should never try to work out and diet? Absolutely not. Dr. and/or organ level. Like it was some badge of honor that his testes were now rendered useless and that he was essentially unable to put on muscle mass. you feel like shit. If you're dieting/starving yourself or even eating below maintenance to try and lose weight. the essential fatty acids are deficient. Ridiculous! Personally. Testosterone levels crash. And dietary fats are big players in bringing the body into a generalized anabolic state. This can lead to overtraining. The bottom line is if your objective is to put on as much muscle as possible. It won't take too many days of hard training on a catabolic diet before your body decides that it doesn't want to play anymore. you'll grow muscle. which may take weeks or even months to correct. . This has roots on the hormonal.Dr. the body is either mostly anabolic or catabolic. That's a 2 to 1 ratio of fat to muscle contractile protein. I don't know how the hell he did that. Mass drops radically. and myself worked out the following numbers for a hypothetical male. but it isn't an effective means of increasing muscle mass. It's that simple. Now. neuromuscular. too. In addition. Basically. If you eat to be catabolic. Bullshit! They're self delusional! Of course it affects you. we grow. it'll take much longer for your body to fully recover from a hard workout. it's not that simple in terms of assigning importance to each macronutrient in the diet. It takes a lot of energy to train hard day-in and day-out and your body knows this. Ziegenfuss. I think that eating moderate to high fat is ideal for both hormonal reasons and metabolic ones. If you aren't eating intelligently. then you aren't going to get great results from your training! It's just that simple. It's both building up and breaking down at all times. If we took a 200-lb male that has about 15% body fat. Lemon. It used to be the norm for dieters and athletes alike to restrict dietary fats to such miniscule amounts that the fat in oatmeal. But it isn't all that difficult either. Even more devastating is the fact that you won't have the ability to train as hard. let's discuss fat intake and restriction coupled with high carbohydrate diets. and other athletes who try to lose fat or "make weight" convince themselves that the dieting doesn't affect them much. of course. was way too much for them! I remember I used to train with this guy who claimed to eat less than 15 grams per day. rowers. but it sounds ridiculous to me. However. Lifting along with dieting is an extremely effective means of shedding fat. if anabolism outweighs catabolism. If you eat to be anabolic. you'll lose muscle. Mentally and physically you just won't be able to keep up the same intensity during your workouts. All athletes need to train hard to maximize their gains. John. that individual would have about 30 lbs of fat on their body and less than 15 lbs of contractile muscle protein. you have to give your body what it needs. As for sub-clinical situations. There's nothing magically thermogenic about the absence of fat! JB: Right. so I'll cut it short there. Adkins and perhaps Barry Sears do have some valid points regarding refined carbohydrates as "bad guys. do you guys think there are any normal or sub-clinical (non-medically treated) situations where dietary fats should be restricted to such low levels? LL: Typically. I think that only 10 to 15% of your total fat intake should come from saturates. However. I think that the general recommendations to cut down on fat in the diet were well intended. Even morbid clinical obesity is treated with simultaneous carb and fat restrictions. You have to remember that we evolved on a fairly high fat diet and our body functions best with fat in our diet. so relax. Although I don't agree with everything they say. there's no question about that. With all of the fears of saturated fats out there. severe restrictions on total fat intake are reserved for fat maldigestion pathologies like pancreatic and gall bladder problems. not just fat restriction.I know that our recommendations often fly right in the face of convention. I've been known to recommend saturated fats for growth? EN: You diabolical bastard! JB: Yeah. too. . very little lycopene actually makes it into your blood stream. fat is a great source of caloric density (lots of calories per gram of fat). But when trying to increase mass. but this fear of fat has been taken to the extreme by the general public. It's a classic example of the nutritional misinformation that's so rampant in our society. Just one example of what I mean would be the antioxidant lycopene. I've got another one for you. the average sedentary individual was eating about 40% fat (most of this coming from saturated fats) in the diet. EN: Yeah. I don't suggest very high quantities of saturated fats. we're writing for a magazine named Testosterone. I can understand why some would be cautious. which is found mainly in tomatoes. obesity. That's a nice recipe for heart disease. This is called a "protein-sparing modified fast" or PSMF. if you eat a tomato and a little fat — voila! Huge increase in plasma levels of lycopene. Here's why: Firstly. When dieting." It's about time for this kind of lateral thinking. Dietary fats have been lumped together as a single entity and demonized for too long. Saturated fats can lead to high LDL and low HDL and that's bad. With this said. But the bottom line is that if you train. But both of these points are largely moot if you're working out every day. but after all. I say this because there's data to suggest that saturated fat intake can increase T production. I could go on for hours talking about fat and general health. you need to take the saturates up to about 30 to 35% of total fats. At the time. punch'em in the brain. certain dietary fatty acids can play a role in the blood lipid abnormalities that plague sedentary individuals. etc. Many of you have probably heard about lycopene in the news recently because of its extremely powerful anticancer effect. higher-fat diet proponents like Dr. Then you better get your 150-pound butt on your bike and peddle away! Seriously. I know. though. EN: When people start talking about completely getting rid of fat in their diets it makes me want to punch them in the brain. And secondly. So it's much easier to overeat if you're eating a lot of fat. Now. If you eat a tomato. fat restrictions below 20 to 30% of daily intake are largely unnecessary. you can get away with higher levels of saturated fats from a health perspective and you'll probably grow. yeah. Omega 3s could also speed up recovery from hard workouts where you completely shred your muscles. here's where I comment on some of the biggest benefits of taking the stuff. and even more relevant to our readers. This ratio can also impact performance and body composition as well. This is where CLA comes in to play. When taken with the high fat meal. a high fat (59%) meal nearly doubled the bioavailability of the T! In one group receiving Test undecanoate tablets alone. LL: Let's mention the fact that the muscle damage created from weight training is very pro-inflammatory anyway. Over the last few years. Since you're the resident expert on the omega families. EN: Well. finally. muscle soreness may be reduced and recovery time may be enhanced! You see. this looks like a pretty good opportunity for me to get on my omega 3 soap box and start proclaiming the power of the mighty salmon! As I mentioned earlier. A dietary shift towards more omega 3s has been shown to help in a variety of diseases from asthma to cardiovascular disease. we get phospholipids with omega 6 fatty acids in them. Many writers have ascribed magical thermogenic. but it also has the potential to be of benefit to athletes. their T levels were increased significantly. I guess I'm not the only crazy one who sees value in higher fat diets in athletes. First. And here. why don't you tell us what you think. These phospholipids are important because they're used to make a family of hormone-like molecules called eicosanoids. When we eat fat. at this time. their T levels didn't even increase above placebo levels. are my graphs: . The eicosanoids are then made from the omega 6s. whereas omega 3 eicosanoids are very weakly inflammatory at best. Interestingly. One of the big differences is that omega 6 eicosanoids are very pro-inflammatory. anabolic. The problem is that the fats we were eating back in the good old paleolithic days were quite a bit different from the fats we eat now. The same is true for eating omega 3s. Let's get to the impact of different fats on performance. Eicosanoids are involved in pretty much everything our body does. Training damages muscle — muscle gets inflamed — inflammation promotes more damage — more damage. With omega 3s. Since I've done quite a bit of CLA research. These days it has been suggested that this ratio is 30:1 up to 50:1! So what's the big deal you ask? The big deal is that this change in the ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 plays a role in pretty much every major disease that's killing us in Western civilization. Who would've thought that eating fat could make your steroids more effective? Anyway. The eicosanoids made from 3s and 6s have many different functional properties.JB: Okay good. why don't we break out some cutting edge fat research. The nagging shoulder tendonitis that flares up every time you do shoulder presses could conceivably improve with more 3s. hot off the presses. and we could spend days just talking about them. and so on. In men given oral Testosterone and Testosterone undecaonate. is the fact that fat can increase the absorption and effectiveness of anabolic drugs. If the cell membrane is full of omega 6s. let me briefly touch on why this ratio is important. and transcendental health benefits to this oil. we evolved on a fairly high fat diet. Back then our ratio of omega 6s to omega 3s was very close to 1:1. We know now that the "magic" in flax comes from the omega 3 content.) These guys make up the barrier between the inside and outside of the cells. bodybuilders have been turned on to flax oil. some of it is incorporated into the cell membrane as phospholipids (lipids with a phosphate attached. inflammation is a cyclical process. you're talking about mega soreness and damage. more inflammation. The big picture here is that if we're eating a lot of omega 6 fatty acids. Eric. As you can see from this data set, both delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS) and interleukin-6 concentrations were blunted after an eccentric downhill run in the CLA subjects. IL-6 is a pain-related, inflammatory cytokine, so the two findings agree. In theory less IL-6, less muscle soreness. And check this out: The urinary nitrogen from these subjects was a bit lower in the CLA group as well, indicating a tad less muscle breakdown, but this latter finding wasn't statistically significant like the others. All this is exciting, but unless you're a subject in one of my studies, it's unlikely that you'll get close to 15 grams a day of CLA, even with supplements. At this point, I wouldn't recommend it anyway; we need more data on both safety and efficacy. In fact, Dr. Joey Antonio joked once that I've basically just discovered expensive natural "aspirin" that takes six weeks to work! I can hardly argue except to say that it's a food that seems to possess drug-like qualities and that in itself is fascinating. JB: Right on, guys. I can't give a recommendation for CLA, Lonnie, but thanks for those splendid graphs. I feel like I'm back in seminar class snoozing through one of your buddy, Dr Ziegenfuss' lectures! As far as what I can recommend, I've recommended fish and flax oils to many people suffering from injuries. I've also recommended them to some friends with asthma and rheumatoid arthritis. Each has noticed some benefit. In regard to weight trainers, it's my impression that the benefits noticed with CLA in Lonnie's studies would also be noticed with omega 3s. Eric, we've talked a lot about the "omega" family and insulin lately. What's your take on their impact in regard to the mighty hormone insulin? EN: Perhaps the biggest benefit from eating a better ratio of 3s to 6s may come from increased insulin sensitivity. It's pretty well established in rodent studies that membrane phospholipids high in omega 6s leads to, or at least contribute to, insulin resistance. Membrane phospholipids high in omega 3s actually have an opposite effect- increased insulin sensitivity! What's really exciting is that the improvement in insulin sensitivity with 3s may only occur in muscle cells. Adipocytes (fat cells) appear to actually become insulin resistant with a diet high in omega 3s. This is a best-case scenario! Insulin has two main actions in an adipocyte. First, it turns on the fat-making machinery so you're making bigger adipocytes (i.e. larger beer belly.) Secondly, it inhibits your fat cells from breaking down the stored fat and sending it off to the muscles to burn for energy. So basically insulin helps build fat cells. With omega 3s, however, you now have a scenario where the muscle is increasing its response to one of the most anabolic hormones in our body, and the fat cells are basically ignoring the signal to make more fat! Beautiful. Even more exciting yet is the recent research that has suggested that 3s also shut down the genes that tell the body to store fat. In rodent studies, when rats are fed a diet with 6s as their fat source, they are considerably fatter than rats that are fed the same amount of calories but with 3s as their fat source. Now I keep mentioning rodent studies, because the data isn't as solid in humans. This is because you can't control the diet in humans like you can in rodents. The rodent studies generally start the rats on their fat, either 6s or 3s, immediately after they are weaned from their mother. In addition, the fats are completely controlled. JB: You mean, the study rats don't get stressed out from too much sitting around in woodchips all day and just blow their diet with pints of Ben and Jerry's Chubby Hubby ice cream? EN: I think not. Humans do, though! First, they enter into a study with a body full of omega 6s. Then they continue to eat a diet that is quite high in omega 6s. The experiments typically just supplement the normal diet with fish oil or some other high omega 3 oil. This presents a problem because 6s and 3s interfere with each other. So if you have lots of 6s in the body and still coming in the diet, they're going to minimize the effectiveness of the 3s that you're taking in. JB: You know, I've been thinking a lot about something lately. I've been wondering what is more important, the ratio of 6s to 3s or the absolute values. We all know that by increasing your intake of polys each day through flax or salmon, the levels of 3 will go up. Also, the actual number of 6s and total fats may go up, too. So basically you get more 3s and more 6s and more fat. But the ratios change. Here's an example. At the start you might have been getting 90 g of fats per day. Something like 30 g from sats, 30 g from monos, and 30 g from polys. Of the polys, 25 g might be omega 6s and 5 g might be omega 3s (a 5:1 ratio). Well, if I now add three tablespoons of flax per day, I'll be getting 30 g from sats, 30 g from monos, and 75 g from polys. In this case, there are definitely more 3s (about 35 g total), but there are also more 6s (about 40g total). So the ratio of 6s to 3s has changed from 5:1 to almost 1:1. So my main question is this: Is the ratio more important or is the total level of 6s and 3s more important? From what you said above, it seems like one might want to avoid 6s as much as possible so that more 3s can be incorporated into cell membranes exclusively and replace the 6s that are already there. I can imagine that with a diet rich in mostly 3s, you could accomplish this over a few months' time. With the rates of cell membrane turnover, it wouldn't happen immediately, though. EN: There have been some pretty good studies looking at this question and in terms of the eicosanoids produced it looks like it's the ratios that are the most important. If you're eating a typical diet that's high in 6s and then supplement with a lot of 3s, the improvement is pretty impressive. However, with that said, I think a much more sensible plan is to reduce the amount of 6s in the diet as much as possible at the same time that you are increasing the amount of 3s. Your total fat intake doesn't really change, but the ratios do. JB: Okay, the best of both worlds would be to eliminate 6s and increase 3s. So this would actually warrant the use of fish oils over flax oils. I know that the fish oils show a much more impressive health benefit for cardiovascular disease patients and insulin resistant diabetics than does flax. I guess that's because with flax, you increase both 3s and 6s, while with fish oils you increase mostly 3s. Also, it appears that because the fish oils are rich in EPA and DHA, they're better suited to the health benefits we mentioned. Other omega 3 oils have a lot of LNA, but that omega 3 has to be converted into the more effective EPA and DHA. An analogy would be to compare LNA to prohormones while EPA and DHA are like Testosterone. LNA gives some benefit by itself but is most effective when converted to EPA and DHA. So why not just take fish oils which are high EPA and DHA? LL: I'll take the cop-out answer and say both total and fatty acid ratios matter. Obviously, total amount of fat, in grams, is a big issue as far as energy density/gross caloric intake is concerned. That is, you get to eat less at a given caloric ceiling. Luckily fat's higher satiety value (e.g. slower gastric emptying) helps keep you full longer. On the other side of the coin, like Eric said, there's hard evidence stating that fatty acid ratios may be more critical regarding inflammation and immune-related catabolism. I personally consume about 30% of my energy as fat. I try to eat very little "junk fat." Gone are the days of gobs of mayo on my BK Broiler and other such creams, dressings and sauces that have few nutrients. Most of my fat now is from olive oil (monounsaturates) and meat (saturates and polys). Although you guys have mostly discussed the polys, namely the omega 3s, few people realize the extent to which monos aid athletes — not the least of which are antioxidant effects. As mentioned earlier with the polys, monounsaturates can be incorporated into the cell membrane. While there, monounsaturates are much less likely to suffer from lipid peroxidation. Lipid peroxidation occurs when free radicals attack cell membranes. This is part of the cellular damage that antioxidants protect against. So by using more monos in the diet, you can protect against oxidative damage from another angle. I'm always cautious in this respect. I also grind up flax seeds and put them in a lot of my food. Also. but it doesn't have the good omega 3 fats that salmon has. liquid flax and fish oils are added to my protein shakes. I've been slowly changing up my intake based on this relatively new information. over the last few months. Eric. LL: Fair enough. I take a couple of salmon oil capsules every day and a tablespoon of flaxseed oil. I've been switching to the omega 3 eggs and broiling leaner beef. what have we learned today? Well. I eat a lot of omega 3 eggs and I also eat flax specialty products such as flax frozen waffles. decrease muscle damage and soreness. Lonnie. as Eric recommends. I've been adding one to two cans of salmon per day for the EPA's and DHA's. Just kidding. Coincidence? I think not! EN: This is what I try to do. my chronic knee. I don't really see a problem with omega 3s inhibiting muscle gain. Remember. I make a conscious effort to completely eliminate 6s from my diet. I look for saturated fats to make up only about 10% or so of my total fat intake. I also jack up my DHA and EPA (along with occasional flax seeds) during the times when my elbow tendonitis is screaming. In addition to eating the golden eggs from wonder chickens. and heavy training feel better than ever. JB: Listen. elbow. I think that bodybuilders should. You want a Tick-Tack? Go ahead.Back to my diet. In addition to that. EPA) and some flax seeds or flax oils. as when I'm in a fat loss/aerobic activity phase of training. T-men. . I also eat a lot of sardines (much to my roommate's dismay) in the days leading up to a big race. and shoulder pain from years of football. I eat a big bowl of green weeds every day. decrease it in fat. I recommend 30% of the total dietary fats coming from saturates during mass building. and decrease disease or injury-induced inflammation. To compensate I hit the 3s pretty heavy. really. here are a few pearls of wisdom to take to the kitchen: • During all training phases. make a conscious attempt to eliminate the omega 6 poly unsaturates from your diet while simultaneously increasing your omega 3s mostly in the form of fish/salmon oils (DHA. and I try to eat a couple salmon steaks a week. Finally. Then I shoot for 1020% monos and 50-60% polys (mostly omega 3s). This increase in 3s. This way. Although I still like my egg yolks and beef. which I put on just about everything. But I do shy away from fish oils during mass phases because no one really knows if there's any potentially negative impact on muscle growth. JB: Yeah. a can of salmon almost every day. I try to get around 30% of my total calories from fat. Tuna is the traditional cheap and easy bodybuilding protein. can potentially increase insulin sensitivity in muscle. I get to control my omega 6 and saturated fat intake and supplement my omega 3 intake. this just brings me down to a moderate level. but given how abundant they are. Unlike John. I also add a few grams of fish oil (via salmon or capsules) per day if I'm primarily focusing on protein sparing. There's no question that I recover better and can stay leaner on a higher caloric intake eating this way. guys! So. JB: That reminds me. but I think most of it was fat weight that they lost. I also add olive oil to my daily salads. As far as the monos that Lonnie mentioned. The remainder of my fat comes from olive oil. those rats lost weight with omega 3s verses 6s. take two. as well as the more favorable ratio of 3s to 6s. Thanks for sharing your info. reduce body fat. But remember. rugby. leave their tuna behind and recognize the power of the mighty salmon. I think it's important to note that while discussions about responses to individual meals are interesting and useful. It's prudent to remind everyone that protein intake is typically held steady (e. To put it succinctly. A comment I made in a recent article apparently set a pea beneath the many mattresses upon which TC sleeps. decrease this ratio to about 10% of total fat intake and attack the salmon and olives for the rest of your fats. I offered to head up another roundtable regarding dietary fat combinations. carbohydrate. After all. but not much more of yo ur total fat intake) during mass phases. eight cents… and TC can get back to his beauty rest. Trust me. First. To this end. At least intellectually. LL: Definitely. eat your fats! Time to get even fatter. clever idea. "40 -3030 guys" like TC would agree that fat + carbs are probably good while our own John Berardi probably would not.net/articles/219caff. John and I are about to each throw in our two cents on some controversial stuff.testosterone. most based on a singular. So in discussing specific meal combinations let's not forget that at the end of the day. and fat required to achieve our desired goals. don't reduce fat intake to such low levels that your energy levels are that of a 80 -year-old bridge player. Should fat be eaten with carbs or not? The comment wasn't meant to be controversial but alas… data can be interpreted and applied in many ways. the reason we discuss the theoretical rationale behind meal combinations or meal timing is so that we can use this information to develop a functional plan. it's exceptionally easy to get lost in theoretical discussions. Cy. So I will now reach into my bag of irritating questions. at a gram per pound) while carbohydrates and fats are the energy sources.g. TC. I'd like to make a few comments to set the stage for what we should strive to accomplish in this roundtable. each of us has to consume enough protein. • Finally. For example. at the end of the day.) • If you want to really piss off the dieticians and "health fanatics. to dissect any particular phenomenon (physiological or otherwise) in order to gain some new insight while at the same time losing the appropriate vantage point from which we can apply the new information." eat saturated fats (about 30%. By the time we're done. And me? I'll try to disagree with everybody just for fun. and total energy to assist in the attainment of our goals. we should have. (Is this getting like the Caffeine Roundtable? Link to http://www. There are multitudes of "diets" out there. well.. each of us has to come up with an appropriate plan for ingesting the specific amount of protein. . Get ready. carbohydrates. During diet phases. This can fa vorably impact blood lipid profiles and cell integrity (by preventing free radical induced oxidation.html) But rather than start our own Fight Club. It had to do with how dietary fats enhance the insulin response to carbohydrates.• Replacing your saturates with monounsaturates in the form of olive oils is a smart move. But at the end of the day. In short. Whether an individual prefers one or the other — or a specific combination — is of secondary concern.. TC couldn't help but notice it and figured readers would too. it's still total daily kcal and macronutrient intake that matter greatly to the aspiring athlete. your testis will become nothing more than little dangling ornaments with no real function but to get in your way during leg presses. fats. They did. First up: carbohydrate + fat combinations — good or evil? JB: Before we delve into this discussion. After all. What the heck am I talking about? Well. As such. The fat both increases the viscosity of the sludge in your stomach and interferes with the enzyme carbohydrate interaction. We need to be reminded of the social and technological events leading to America's current state lest we slip into pointlessly academic banter based on the latest single study. Likewise. However. you know what the worst food I tested was? Special K cereal. Jekyll good or evil? With regard to this point. eating a carb with a protein would also be prudent. Subsequent research has confirmed Jacobsens' observations again and again. in my humble opinion. Fat. but take away our carbs and all we get is a little grumpy. they're definitely not evil. Lo and behold it was about this time that obesity and its partner in crime. Anyone for a pickle on sourdough sandwich? LL: Thanks for the history. or even whole milk. more ectomorphic guys but a malevolent fiend toward thicker-skinned endomorphs." But I digress. and a manly disregard of the pain caused by finger pricks. Given that most of the carbs we eat in modern society are highly processed. I think he'd be a benevolent friend to thin. highly active guys — while those trying . Who knows? It might have something to do with increasing sensitivity to insulin at the cell level. but it seems. Back to the question. but let me quickly explain that I'm not really a 40-30-30 guy. And now I'm faced with my own smarty pants question… Hmm. the dieter's alleged dream. usually in the form of oil. That meant that the body could absorb them incredibly quickly (given that the digestive system wasn't left with much to do) which lead to dramatic surges in blood sugar and insulin. about 80 years ago. I think avoiding all carbs is unrealistic. I've also done tons of informal experiments to confirm aspects of this. eating fish oil with a carb seems like it would be the smartest thing to do. especially for bodybuilders and endurance athletes. I'd test that same carb source. we need protein to live. Without fail. In the case of bodybuilders who are trying to bulk up. given that omega-3 unsaturated fatty acids seem to have an ameliorating effect on glucose tolerance. the carb-only foods would send blood sugar skyrocketing.TC: Sure. getting all your calories from just protein and fat can be problematic in a whole bunch of ways. By the way. peanut butter. All it takes is a timer. Interestingly. when added to a carb meal. Let's go back in history a bit. I "grok" all that. too. Are carb and fat combinations good or evil? Generally speaking. this doesn't directly pertain to the question. These flours pretty much replaced the coarser stone-ground flours. Then. With that said. I think one-size fits all macronutrient prescriptions are odious. we need fat to live. the endurance athlete would do well to have a nice store of glycogen warehoused in his muscles so that he doesn't collapse after the first 10 kilometers in his "Greater Urbana Ectomorph 15 K Fun Run. that adding vinegar or some fermented vegetables to your carbs also reduces the rate at which starch is digested. decreased. In fact. Likewise. a high-grinding system of milling was introduced that resulted in very fine white flours. diabetes mellitus started to show up. a researcher named Jacobsen noticed that eating bread with butter produced a much smaller rise in blood-glucose concentration than did bread alone. too. ingest it with a little fat. in addition to the inherent fiber content of these grains. TC. with a concurrent blood sugar crash (below baseline) an hour later. I'm actually of the mind that we humans can get by with far fewer grams of carbs than is generally believed. would slow down absorption and ameliorate the insulin response. Carbs with fats… Was Dr. impairs gastric emptying as well as absorption of the carbohydrate. During the early 17th century. a nifty little drug store glucometer. the actual particle size. either I'm watching too many old horror flicks or I'm saying that carbohydrate + fat combinations may be helpful to those who wish to maintain higher insulin — and glucose — levels for a long time — such as thin. What I'd done is eat plain carbs and tested by blood sugar every 15 minutes of at least an hour. The same goes for sourdough-type breads. as that. it seems prudent to eat fat at the same time to dull the blood sugar and subsequent insulin rise. only this time. then why not use something that doesn't have any caloric value. Back when guar gum was used. casein (smiling) when possible and yes. And of course. the key words here are obviously underlined." No. Being their Massive Master. high in fiber. Oh yeah. LL: …bringing us back to the ol' "hold protein steady and choose your energy source" idea… . the other must be consumed in low quantities. consuming protein. Now where I think people screw this up is by saying "Okay then. introduced by ol' Lucifer himself and enforced by his evil minions! Well. no.to shed body fat should probably avoid the combo. Actually that's the entire premise behind my "Skinny Bastard" diet. Now if you're one of those skinny bast…err I mean individuals. the less insulin will be secreted and the easier it will be for those adipocytes to release those nasty droplets of fat. a chicken breast and some oatmeal" or just simply "oatmeal. you can certainly benefit from having consistently high insulin levels. This is unfortunate since my specific comments stated that: "Meals with a high carbohydrate content in combination with high-fat meals can actually promote a synergistic insulin release when compared to the two alone. Therefore I'm glad you asked this question. unless you're one of those skinny guys that Lonnie mentioned. My generalized and rough guideline has been that any high-carb meal should contain less than 10g of fat while any high fat meal should contain less than 15g of carbohydrates." Aside from that. and just to be disagreeable. Ever since my Massive Eating articles and the introduction of my Don't Diet plan. it's important that I tighten the reins a bit. These recommendations are designed for those weight trainers interested first and foremost in body composition alterations. High fat with high-carb meals represent the worst possible case scenario. many readers have misinterpreted the recommendations to mean that a carbohydrate containing meal must never contain so much as a single gram of fat while a fat containing meal must never contain so much as a single gram of carbohydrate. uh. what they should be thinking is "Okay. at least that's what some of my Massive Eating archangels might have you believe. John." I also stated that one should: "Eat meals consisting of fat and protein together with very little carbs. dressed badly today. fat-free cookies and some Metamucil. avoid fat and carb containing meals and stick to meals that are high in fiber. the lower the amount of glucose in the bloodstream. they'd demonstrated increased insulin sensitivity simply because of its effect on slowing/reducing absorption of glucose and it's thought to be one of the mechanisms of action with metformin. protein should be consumed with every meal. if you're simply using the fat content to slow absorption of glucose. Also eat protein and carbs together. I'd simply suggest that you make sure a higher amount of fiber is contained in each meal. Don't eat carbs by themselves and don't eat carbs with fat." In these statements. Basically my point was that when one of the two macronutrients was consumed in high quantities. it's okay to add some fish oil caps in there as well. However. Remember. the n as Lonnie pointed out. being as it's been shown that simply slowing the rate at which glucose enters the bloodstream or (intestinal glucose absorption rate). you should be eating things that are harder in texture. though. Lon Solo. but with very little fat in those meals. CW:: Well. like fiber? So. you putz… you're. JB: Gasp! Combining carbohydrates and fats in a single meal is a dietary strategy straight out of the fiery inferno. Why not try to minimize this potentially enlarging combination? One of the most logical ways to do this while ensuring you get all the nutrients you need is to combine your meals properly. through stimulation of insulin secretion — via glucose and absorbed amino acids — and is indirect. via ingested proteins. Numerous studies over the years have supported the notion that fats indeed may enhance the insulin response to carbohydrate ingestion and that hyperinsulinemia both shuts down fat burning and enhances fat building. they simply can eat more calories than they ever thought possible without gaining as much fat as they might have expected. This hormone doesn't need insulin to make you fatter. when Dr. One example of this is the fact that insulin is not the only regulator of fat storage. since nutritional science is wrought with great complexity. it's released from fat cells directly in response to blood chylomicrons (pre-packaged fats) and is responsible for increased triglyceride synthesis in the adipose cells. carbohydrates. the very same hyperinsulinemia that. Of course. can cause uptake of both fat and carbohydrate into the adipose tissue for fat building. ASP works for fat storage like insulin works for carbohydrate storage. Before we move on. The effect of these ingested nutrients (fats. I want to pacify the science savvy out there. Holtschlag et al discussed the possibility that ingested fat also may potentiate the amounts of insulin stimulated by ingested carbohydrates. this plan is one of the better ones. I believe they provide a functional way to consume an abundant amount of micronutrient dense. I've simplified matters here for explanatory purposes only. .JB: As described in both my Massive Eating and Don't Diet plans. But the theory makes some sense. LL: Okay. when combined with high blood levels of fat. hormone-stimulating fats. But from what I've seen of these recommendations. high blood levels of insulin. through stimulation of hormone secretion. After all. Adipose tissue can be stuffed full of fats and carbohydrates in an insulin independent manner via a hormone called "ASP" or Acylation Stimulating Protein. and fats. especially in the presence of hyperlipidemia. In 1996. and fats (due to the synergistic insulin secretion promoted by a carbohydrate + protein + fat meal as well as the absorption of these nutrients) can lead to more nutrients being shuttled to your fat cells than desired. In other words. glycogen-replenishing carbohydrates and metabolism altering. the proportion of lean mass gained to fat mass gained is improved (if trying to get bigger) and the proportion of lean mass retained to fat mass lost is also improved (if trying to get leaner). though. and muscle-building proteins while simultaneously preventing excessive hyperinsulinemia and excessive fat gain. However. Rather. theory aside. proteins and carbohydrates) on insulin secretion is direct. This is the very same hyperinsulinemia that prevents the mobilization of fats from the storage depots of the adipose tissue to the metabolic furnaces of the muscle where they can be burned for energy. Basically. they noticed that foods containing refined carbohydrates and fats seemed to generate a disproportionate insulin response relative to the actual carbohydrate content as well as the glycemic index of the meal. In 1998. carbohydrates. Holt and colleagues were formulating those famous insulin index charts. While the Massive Eating/Don't Diet plans aren't perfect (no human attempt at manipulating physiology is). thousands of weight lifters and strength athletes have benefited from these recommendations. This indicated that meals high in fat and carbohydrate could promote a nasty case of hyperinsulinemia. one of the reasons why we try to minimize this potentially fattening combo of high fat and high carbohydrate meals is because of the very same synergistic insulin release that has been described above. reporting exactly what I had indicated in my first Massive Eating article. everybody take a deep breath… he's still talking… JB: So where's the scientific data? We don't got none. other programs can also produce results. When presented with a menu or meal that doesn't come from the kitchen of the bodybuilding gods. There's usually a lot of muscle underneath that lard. I'd love to talk all day on this topic. That's why tubby guys aren't generally as tubby as we think they are. TC: Damn straight! I don't disagree that you shouldn't ingest high amounts of carbs and high amounts of fats in one meal. However. TC. etc. You know — emaciated guys like Lonnie. As badly dressed John Berardi has pointed out time and time again. I think a few of the other guys might like to get a word in edgewise. my only fear is that this individual. fats and proteins often have to be included in higher carb meals. For example. might. Another exception concerns the type of carbohydrate. Does this mean athletes are destined to balloon up like male spider monkeys during mating season? Nope. However. carbohydrate.g. create some insulin resistance and find it ultimately a little harder to shed some of his newly acquired lard. But rather than throwing our hands up in resignation. — and have to grab the waiter and/or potential future mother-in-law by the neck and slam their head into the wall every time they have the temerity to combine fats and carbs. practice damage control and combine high GI carbs with fats and/or proteins. Since carbs are such a large part of the competitive athlete's day. In this case. we should focus on what we do know in order to manipulate what we can. in the long run. we can favorably affect body composition. Meals that contain protein.So. is when you want to sledgehammer your insulin rate sky high. eating out. my basic low carb with higher-fat meals and low fat with higher carb meals are designed — first and foremost — for weight trainers interested in body composition change. but for now. does this mean that the Massive Eating/Don't Diet combos will not work since fat can be stored even without high blood levels of insulin? Heck no! All it means is that there are all sorts of physiological phenomenon occurring that we either don't understand all that well or don't even know about." Due to their low GI and II characteristics. Likewise." but hell. minerals. nuts. in general. Therefore it seems that foods like beans. Since they are also often rich in vitamins. by using our diet to manipulate insulin concentrations. then you have some special concerns that these basic rules do not address. bulking phases. your body is probably quite opposed to fat storage anyway and the "devil's combinations" will probably not wreak havoc on your adipose content. and fat concentrations in the blood. I know. these foods generate very little insulin response and don't dump glucose into the blood at a substantial rate. I wouldn't combine fats with carbs in the much-hallowed post workout period. as bodybuilders we're not ever supposed to "slip up. and some fruits appear to be "rule breakers. Are there any exceptions to your respective rules (e. and healthy fiber. This means that they won't create the dreaded high insulin. I'm talking all things in moderation. If you're a competitive athlete and your primary goals are performance and recovery. most diets where you grossly overeat end up adding about 70% lean mass and about 30% fat mass. body types. LL: Okay. I know. this period. I think it's a bit unrealistic to go through life — you know. major concerns of athletes include steady energy provision (carbohydrate 2-3 hours before training or competition as well as during competition) and glycogen recovery (abundant post exercise carbohydrate intake). here. individual metabolisms. And as far as John's Massive Eating plan. vegetables. fat and very low glycemic index/insulin index carbohydrates that are also fibrous may also be okay. they are certainly an acceptable . and Cy. dietary carb or fat types)? TC: Sure. JB: As stated above. I don't think eating carbs by themselves is a bad thing for the ectomorph who desperately wants to put on weight — any kind of weight. but unless I'm mistaken. in particular. If you're training correctly as an athlete. I admire the hell out of it for its elegance and intellectual thinking behind it. going to your girlfriend's house for dinner. now all of you are allowed to back-pedal a bit. addition to a protein and fat meal — in moderation, of course, with the "bulk" of these types of foods being served during your protein + carb meals. Finally, while meal combination rules have been very effective for many trainees trying to promote a gradual weight loss, they appear to especially shine when applied to those trying to gain muscle mass (i.e. Massive Eating) while minimizing body fat. While Lonman makes a good theoretical point in suggesting that perhaps chronic hyperinsulinemia may be the kick start that some skinny bastards need to gain mass, I will continue to assert that the Massive Eating plan appears to be the best way to accomplish what most weight lifters really want — low-fat beef, baby. LL: You betcha, JB; TC has mentioned that too. Screaming insulin concentrations over weeks and weeks could eventually become counterproductive due to retarded insulin sensitivity (a la type II diabetes). I like the term "kick start," though. Time of day is also a big confounding factor regarding fat and carb "rules." I personally try to avoid fat + carb combinations in the morning (or fats, period). There are data out there suggesting that glucose tolerance is impaired with a fatty breakfast. I wouldn't want to seriously mess up my glucose tolerance for five or six hours when it's otherwise at its best. A big mid-morning carb snack or lunch isn't doing a lot of good if one's muscles are resistant to accepting the resulting blood glucose. I've mentioned before that fat may be a better choice in the evening — but in place of carbs. There is actually research likening healthy nighttime carb-eating subjects to diabetics! "Carb handling" actually gets that bad. I guess here is where my interpretations jive with JB's. Protein with whole-grain carbohydrates in the morning, protein with fat in the evening is logical for most folks. Although, again, skinny guys may want to keep the carbs, fats and proteins flowing pretty much all day. There is insulinogenic synergy here. Maintaining higher insulin concentrations around the clock is the anabolic sledgehammer that they may need to grow. CW:: Damn it Lonnie, now what the hell am I supposed to say? Well, I have to completely agree with what Lonnie said and don't have much to add. Well, one thing I should mention is that even for those individuals who have a more difficult time reducing fat stores, they too should still have one liquid, whey-containing, fiber-free, glucose or dextrose-containing meal and that would be after their workout. TC: I can't argue with any of that, either. JB: I mostly agree with LL's comments here, too. While the meal combination rules still stick, it's crucial to recognize that another issue, nutrient timing, is also important when considering when certain meals (P+C or P+F) should be consumed. I agree with Lonman's morning and nighttime recommendations and will go one step further in reiterating that 90-120 minutes before training a P+F meal may be the best suggestion, while after training, P+C meals are essential. LL: Question number three: Does combining fat with protein have any pros or cons? TC: I wouldn't think it would have any cons, except that, again, in the post-workout period, it might slow down the rate at which amino acids enter into the bloodstream and end up in target muscle cells. I also don't mind protein-only meals. While it's true that protein itself causes an insulin response, it also stimulates glucagon release, in contrast with carb-only meals that cause insulin to increase with a concurrent decrease in glucagon. In other words, were it not for this protein-induced release of glucagon, the protein-induced release of insulin would lead to a hypoglycemic state. What happens is that the glucagon induces breakdown of hepatic glycogen to "cover" the insulin release. JB: Most practically, since my plan suggests very little fat with P+C meals, it's obvious that the daily dietary fat intake has to either be provided as a fat-only meal or in conjunction with protein as a P+F meal. The importance of a good amount of fat, especially healthy fat, has been discussed repeatedly here at T-mag so let's just assume that a good amount of dietary fat (20-30% of total kcal intake) is required and then move on. Since a fat only meal provides virtually no metabolic increase (thermic effect of feeding) as well as provides none of the daily protein requirement, I think it's important to consume protein and fat meals when not consuming protein and carb meals. Besides the practicality of it all, meals combining protein and fat may offer other benefits. Since the inclusion of fat leads to slowed gastric emptying, adding fat to a high-protein meal may effectively slow the rate of the protein absorption, creating something analogous to a time-released protein. This would make the P+F meal ideal for bedtime snacks, especially if you choose the appropriate protein source (see Bedtime Story). Next up: Glucagon. Since glucagon is a regulatory hormone responsible for providing energy to the tissues, it is classified as a catabolic hormone. Essentially, glucagon plays Lex Luther to insulin's Superman. To be more specific, glucagon stimulates the breakdown of stored glycogen into glucose in skeletal muscle and in the liver, stimulates the breakdown of fats into fatty acids in adipose tissue, maintains the liver's output of glucose from amino acid precursors, and leads to the formation of ketone bodies from fatty-acid precursors in the liver; all catabolic events designed at dipping into your energy reserves to provide fuel. Since a protein-only meal increases the release of glucagon (in order to stimulate the liver to produce glucose to normalize blood sugar) and since fat does nothing to directly mitigate the effects of a protein meal on glucagon release while carbohydrates decrease this response, some have speculated that a protein-only meal or a protein-plus-fat meal is a no-no since the glucagon release may promote the manufacture of glucose from all those ingested amino acids. While this may be true with a high protein diet that also lacks sufficient dietary carbohydrate, I believe that the destruction of amino acids will be minimal if the body has sufficient carbohydrate reserves in the liver. In this case, glucagon will tend to make more of the necessary blood glucose from stored glycogen than from ingested amino acids. Sure, some of those aminos will be destroyed. But you've gotta get your fat in sometime and if you're eating enough protein in your diet, there will be plenty left to keep you growing. Besides, although fat does not necessarily mitigate the glucagon response directly, the fact that fat slows the intestinal transit of the protein indicates that over time, the glucagon response to the same protein meal will be less since there are less amino acids being absorbed per unit time to stimulate glucagon release. TC: Alright, Berardi! Screw this academic bullshit. I challenge you to an old fashioned duel. Choose your weapon: a protein and fat combo of ham hocks or a carb and protein combo of corn dogs at thirty paces. LL: Hey! TC, can you stop mocking the Large Professor? He's up on that soapbox again, for sure, but I'm trying to keep this civilized! I did once see a study that fat present in protein meals helps maintain Testosterone levels post-prandially (after eating). But it goes beyond that. Slowed gastric emptying would help dole out that protein to otherwise starving muscles at night, too. I've got to think a steak before bed would maintain serum concentrations of amino acids longer than, say, whey mixed into water or juice. CW:: Lonnie, I have to agree with that wholeheartedly as well. You know, casein is great in terms of slowing gastric emptying as well. Aside from that is the fact that when you sleep, you should enjoy lower plasma insulin levels, which would allow for increased fat oxidation. Oh, and not that this matters much, but just for fun it could result in higher GH levels while sleeping as well. Basically, you should gain 50 lbs. of lean body mass and wake up with 3% body fat when utilizing this method. Kidding! TC: Okay, I agree with all of you there, too. Fat and protein at night would slow gastric emptying and act as a "time release" protein of sorts. Well, it seems that none of us are in too much disagreement here. Sure, we've got our minor differences when it comes to macronutrient combos, but for the most part, we could probably all eat peacefully at the same smorgasbord. Or maybe isotopically labeled protein tracers aren't your forte and all you really know is that "meat is good. the 5'8" Berardi still maintains a respectable year-round body fat of below 5% at a bodyweight of about 190 pounds. researcher and bodybuilder who's about as traditional in the dietetics world as an Amish TV repairman. Lonnie Lowrey ? Lonnie is a college nutrition professor. We put them in a padded cell.John's a regular contributor to T-mag. he stands 6'2". an exercise biochemist and a supplement researcher. Berardi . and other ergogenic aids. Lemon family tree" and has thus . our experts let the science and the theories fly. antioxidants. yet opinionated experts to discuss some hot topic protein issues. Like a group of argumentative teenage girls enraged by their "Which member of 'N Sync is the biggest hottie" debate. when is the best time to consume protein? How much? What kind? Is soy really that bad? Why is whey supposed to be so good? What's up with the new interest in casein? And finally. John is now studying with the world renowned "godfather of protein requirements." Peter Lemon. When they emerged from the cell a few hours later with tuffs of hair pulled from their heads and all sporting bloody noses and black eyes. andro. Introducing the Players? John M. removed all sharp objects. locked the doors and let them go at it. He's contributed to research on anabolic steroids. Cy is busting his ass to get into graduate school and plans to make a name for himself in pharmaceutical research. Cy is making a name for himself as a balls-to-the-walls nutritional theorist. After all. endocrinology. 230 pounds at 8% body fat. and their respective applications to bodybuilding. Berardi So what do you know about protein? Probably about as much as you've read in the magazine ads promoting the glycomucuswhatevers and ion-exchanged.Cy Willson is also a regular contributor to T-mag." Well. we've compiled a small panel of very knowledgeable. do any of these factors make a difference when it comes to getting buff and attracting women? To help you answer these questions. The more we talk about it. Cy Willson . Although he doesn't compete. ribose. but he took the nutrition job for the free food and because he likes hearing cute coeds call him Dr. we knew we'd found a few answers. Sometimes the science of protein is complicated. He even took a crack at research aimed at fixing cardiovascular disease. the more overcomplicated it gets. and pharmacology. vanadyl sulfate. In other words. John also happens to be a pretty accomplished competitive bodybuilder with a few NABBA USA trophies on his mantel. glutamine. He too belongs to the "Dr. cross-mutated doohickies. he bags all the babes. Although he hasn't competed in a while. that's okay. LL Cool J.The Protein Roundtable See what happens when two T-mag writers and a nutrition professor get together to talk protein Refereed by John M. Although he likes to have his hand in many pots. His doctorate is in exercise physiology. Although he may seem a bit nerdy from that perspective. his general expertise is in the areas of physiology. creatine. Despite being the youngest contributor to Tmag (and therefore having to wear a beanie around the office with a little propeller on top). When he's not chasing coeds. undertrained and protein-deficient RDA bureaucrats have adjusted their recommendations based on new research. Based on the discussions I've overheard in the gym and even from many magazine articles I've read. the more you should increase protein intake. For those muscleheads who care less for academia and more for anabolism. even if it means going well over 1 g/lb.6 to 1. if there are two things that I know. Times have changed a little and thankfully the over-fat.4 grams per pound of bodyweight (0. However. I've seen guys that had trouble gaining muscle conquer this by simply using that formula. Now that you know the players. He has thus turned his back on competition. According to the ADA.55 to 0. in effect. opting for size over starvation. as well as a lot of plain old stupidity being tossed around. I can still vividly remember the day my very first nutrition professor laughed at me in front of the whole class when I argued for a higher intake for bodybuilders. though.8 g/lb might be beneficial for really intensely trained guys. Also.80 g/lb for weight trainers. Well. he's probably about the only college prof in the world who enjoys punching-up 500 pound squats between classes. I'd say that 1 g/lb is a good start for trainees just plugging along with typical year-round training. ADA. I'd go with 1. So. Some people make the mistake of reducing protein too much during a calorie-restricted diet because they don't get as full from protein sources or they don't find them as palatable.65 to 0. Lonnie is 5'8" and weighs in at 210 pounds at about 8% fat. Cy? CW: Yep. along with enough overall calories. at the least. this is estimated to meet the needs of 97. is the key determinant of how much muscle you can gain.25 to 1. There's even some literature in the famed Romanian weightlifting programs that suggests that 1.65 g/lb for endurance trainers and 0. they end up increasing the amount of fat or carbs in . You see. For a typical bodybuilder. the chicks at the American Dietetics Association (ADA) have continually reasserted that the protein requirements of "normal" people are about 0. I'd take the protein up. the better the calorie balance. I think that going up to or above 2 g/lb might.researched his share of dietary supplements. I guess they're coming around. I agree. be overkill and at the most. If I had to make recommendations. although there are many factors influencing protein needs. I think people striving for muscle growth need at least 1 g/lb. is that too many guys don't understand that protein intake. Over the years. He's competed as a light-heavy twice.5%. They also state that the maximum usable amount of protein for adults is 1 g/lb. I'd like to say that I think this roundtable is long overdue. though. but got spanked for being "too smooth at 4% fat". the better the protein balance. there seems to be lot of protein myths being perpetuated. Personally. One thing that you didn't mention. let's get the discussion underway! The Master Plan ? Protein Requirements and Over-Consumption JB: As the self-appointed moderator of this little soiree. Despite these undisputed facts.4 g/lb). there's no question that a minimum of 1 g/lb is an absolute necessity. They currently recognize a protein need of about 0. be harmful to muscle gains or normal physiology. The second is that bodybuilders certainly aren't normal. When the intensity goes up.50 g/lb. So let's just get aggressive and clean house starting with protein needs for maximizing muscle mass. For people eating lower calories and trying to drop body fat. I think metabolism has a lot to do with intake so in cases where the person has a fast metabolism.5% of the population. What do you think. the first is that bodybuilders probably don't fit into that 97. my rule is that the more you decrease carb and fat intake. too. one who just ate real food versus one who consumed two MRP's per day plus food: Subject and Protein Intake 1.their program. A calorie is not a calorie! That is. so we'll call them the "gas" for your bricklayer's equipment. protein will require a full 30 calories just to process it. check out this data: JB: Oh hell. overfeed protein! First off. you should overfeed protein. which is an energy costly process. they just jack insulin levels sky high. as Cy pointed out. overeating protein. To further support my point." Of course. smart ass! Figure 1. while it's just 4 to 6% for fats and carbohydrates. The net result is that the thermic effect of food is about 30% of the intake for proteins. You should vary these according to your glucose tolerance and energy expenditure. To boot. there's no consensus (or even a single study to my knowledge) that excess protein (> 0. although all protein sources aren't that inviting. The thing to remember here is that. Having said that.5 g/ lb. Whole foods plus MRP (175g protein/day) Urinary nitrogen (Protein Lost) 12g (75g protein broken down) 27g (169g protein broken down) Net Protein Gained 78-75 = 3g per day 175-169 = 6g per day . you've hired a brick layer. a higher amount will lead to a further decrease in fat and a better maintenance of protein stores. but so what? It won't hurt you unless you've got kidney disease and you'll have the assurance that your ball-busting gym work is getting the required nutritional support. Now might be a good time to discuss the potential for protein overconsumption. This is because protein has to have its nitrogen ripped off in the liver (the urea cycle). will not make you fat. My old classroom quote (much to the chagrin of certain traditional dietetics instructors) is: "By hitting the weights and taking anabolic supplements. excess protein calories aren't as likely to be stored as body fat compared to carbs and most fats. You'll piss off a good deal of it.8 g/kg) does any measurable damage to healthy kidneys. Interestingly. Carbs don't lend people the same favor. A comparison of two 170 pound athletes. Most of the scare tactics stem from the data on renal patients. Now you've got to give him some bricks. protein kicks up glucagon secretion and glucagon antagonizes the lipogenic (fat storage) effects of insulin. I think there are real body composition advantages to eating upwards of 1. These patients end up with rapid loss of kidney function on normal high protein diets. That's right. As you both know. Cy. within reason. LL: Interesting theory regarding metabolic rate. This means that for a 100 calorie meal. Whole foods (78g protein/day) 2. the very professionals who point out every mistaken extrapolation in the dietary supplement world conveniently forget that they're doing the same "leap of faith" bullshit by applying this patient data to healthy athletes. you also need some carbs and fat for energy. compared to a mere 4 to 6 calories expended to process those yummy gutexpanding carbs and fats. The bottom line is that it appears better to overeat than to under-eat protein when you're trying to add muscle mass while keeping the body fat off. I'll say it again. the professor is pulling out charts! LL: Just pay attention. I'll say that based on size. these same men have all been successful in their bodybuilding efforts. By in large. casein reigns superior. I personally try to double the fluid volume that most supplement labels recommend. while having a higher BV (Biological Value). respectively. It provides a steady. This helps to keep me from continually "assaulting the porcelain." if you know what I mean. insulin. It's been shown to accomplish these feats by increasing anabolism to a moderate extent. Protein Everywhere. it was shown that although amino acid concentrations increased with whey. but these effects are short lived. People often ask me about how much protein can and should be eaten in a single muscle building meal. It increases anabolism quickly and to a large extent. I'm convinced that the sole reason behind this is simply because of its slow digestion and consequently. creating a steady state metabolism in . Nobody's going to grow with a thick. many guys consume amounts in the 60 to 90 gram range. The truth is. I'm aware of a research protocol being designed right now to investigate this very question! Pretty soon we should have some data that will tell us just how much protein can be absorbed in a single sitting. this topic has been debated in the absence of data for far too long. in the end he still netted the most protein by double the amount! Soup's On ? Protein Intake in a Single Meal CW: Here's a hot topic for you guys. A maximum protein intake is much harder to estimate. Moving right along to protein types. so I doubt they'll help much in this regard. In the real world. But What Kind Should I Drink? CW: Thanks for some very vivid and frightening pictures. the list goes on and on). has been outperformed by casein simply because of its fast rate of digestion and absorption. You need them to form a lot of various hormones and neurotransmitters. right Lonnie? So Lonnie. what do you guys think? JB: I agree completely on this point. I will say that when consuming powdered proteins. I feel you should also increase the amount of protein directly following a workout. to increase protein digestion. oxidation rates also increased. Another thing to consider is the role that timing plays in how much you should consume in one sitting. Testosterone. Lonnie. to go one step further with this question. it would be safe to say that in terms of overall muscle tissue increases and decreases of body fat. a minimum of 40 grams per sitting should work well for everyone. It's important that people know that those amino acids do a heck of a lot more than build muscle. absorption rates. Whey. I also try to eat some solid food with reconstituted protein drinks and MRPs for similar reasons. although subject #2 lost more nitrogen and protein per day. Although there may not be a single number given that can be applied to everyone because of the variables involved in protein metabolism (LBM. do you know of any good "adjunct" nutrients that may actually help us digest and metabolize even higher levels of daily or "per meal" protein intake? LL: There's been talk of using bromelain and papain enzymes from pineapples and papaya. Exciting. Casein is therefore the best protein to use before an overnight fast and for breakfast. you should consume the largest amounts when rising and before going to bed. Protein. REE.Obviously. from what I've seen. Just to let you all in on a little secret. Obviously. but even more importantly. slower paced release of amino acids into the blood stream. osmotic nightmare of nutrients dragging out their backside. decreasing catabolism to a large degree. T3-T4 levels. digestion of many proteins already averages above 90%. In fact. as well as other important constituents in the human body. Actually. Okay. Cy. I need to see this data before it's too late! However. I run with fear! As far as the other protein sources. increase body fat. I just read a study that showed that three months of whey supplementation increased anaerobic muscular performance while casein didn't do squat.which there was no change in overall protein balance. Bring on the dead animals! LL: You go. the other compliments. lean. baby! Whoo-hoo! JB: Calm down. not reconstituted powders. while having a greater anabolic response and better BV. my idea of the perfect type of protein would be a combo of casein and whey. Combine the two and pow! you've got one hell of a team! What one lacks. what about getting in touch with our feminine sides? Actually. at least for chicks. I've felt like crap. I don't like soy. both for staying on a diet (without sweating every time you pass a cheeseburger) and for getting the necessary spectrum of nutrients that no protein powder or MRP can provide (at least in correct proportions). the supplement was added to a normal diet. When it comes to supplementing. that adding some whey to a normal diet would be beneficial. and I don't think it has any place in a man's diet at all! JB: But come on. balding. And by "normal. If they do cause water retention and fat accumulation in men. that isn't worth lowering your LDL by a few points. that whey could match casein if you were to combine it with some type of low GI carb and a little fat and continually ingest it every two hours. Not only is in boring as hell. grainy-skinned man. and soy are all valuable in their own way. I tend to agree with you that casein seems superior for body composition in the few studies that have been done. whenever I see soy powder. egg. I feel compelled to say that I eat soy and I'm a muscular. So adding casein in to your nutritional program seemingly would help pack on some mass. though. especially one in which normal diets were supplemented with whey or casein. casein. old fashioned food that actually requires chewing! This whole business of consuming nothing but powders all day makes me want to yak. hairy. Soy may have some health benefits. but you miss out on a whole variety of nutrients. In fact. and lower Testosterone. For me. cause water retention. I also think. not alpha estrogen receptors. I'm not sure that I agree soy will turn a guy into a chick. even T-mag readers have some circulating estrogen!) Isoflavones seem to affect beta estrogen receptors (in bone. for example). Soy. Cy. this isn't a one or the other question! And notice I say supplement. I think that meat. Or maybe for men that want to take on the characteristics of women. however. I'm sorry. So now. inducing a much weaker (even anti-estrogenic) effect than if natural estradiol latched on. but remember." I mean varied. I've gained fat easier and definitely held more water. but I'm not ready to dump my beef and salmon for multiple daily servings cottage cheese just yet. but for men it could wreak havoc with your endocrine system. Kojak! . although the data is still mixed. whey. whenever I've added any significant amount of soy to my diet (> 15 g/d). That is because I think that the mainstay of the diet should be good. Yuck! Although casein seems to be winning a few battles. It's possible. Humans evolved to eat animal flesh. as well as the wallet! That being said. that's a big pain in the ass. This is because of the fact that whey. (Yes. it certainly hasn't won the war. The isoflavones in soy isolates can bind estrogen receptors. John! Variety is key. But. on the other hand. lacks the steady absorption rate of casein. is for women. as you may have noticed. I received a year's supply of lactase enzyme tablets for Christmas last year! Think someone was trying to tell me something?) As far as the first casein verses whey study I mentioned goes. I think many people forget that they mix their whey with casein (milk) anyway. You'll provide plenty of "bricks" (amino acids) for protein synthesis as well as get just enough energy to put them in place (into contractile proteins). that shouldn't be the mainstay of your diet either. casein. eggs. the differences weren't statistically significant. in unpublished data by myself and colleagues. this approach will also replenish your glycogen stores without dumping in sugar all at once with overspill into adipose tissue JB: As far as timing. we looked at the body comp effects a variety of protein powders have on novice lifters. grainy skinned man! As far as eating food verses powders. but it offers a damn good amount of casein. But there's a dark side. The take home message is that no one is blowing passed his training buddy in six weeks just because he eats a different protein! CW: Interesting data. Insulin isn't called the "most anabolic hormone" for nothing. however. Lonnie? LL: Well. insulin is under immediate. opt for the fat free version. ion exchange whey.LL: Sorry about that. As a final note. casein. big protein meals (with some low glycemic carbs and monounsaturated fats tossed in for energy) are a better approach. As far as the lactose goes. This is both good and bad. with the added benefit of 8 to 16 grams of long-acting. that's just a necessary evil. anabolic whey right when you need it. cost efficient. I have a different perspective. soy). This is obviously not good. which aren't that "normal" anyway. whey. If you don't want the fat. you soy eating. Theoretically I'd like to recommend "stacking" the casein with whey protein at this . The rest of the day I limit carbs to fibrous grains. acute control. if you're going to eat whole food. too! My inability to create enough lactase has caused some horrible occurrences. but I try to get four more meals in of 30 to 50 grams of protein each (meat. I hate the stuff. whole food should be a staple. We compared gel-filtered whey. In today's fast paced world. Of course. It not only induces protein synthesis and prevents its breakdown. I've yet to see data on the combo. If you train with any volume. getting a pretty cool 3:1 proportion. fruits and vegetables. You Didn't Get The Timing Right! JB: Now I guess the next issue we deal with should be how and when to incorporate certain proteins into the diet. What did we find? Nada! No reliable differences over a six-week period! In relative support of Cy. this could equate to a big 25 to 50 gram bolus of fast acting. Insulin is a "Jekyll and Hyde" hormone. But again. back to protein. Instead. many people don't have the time and/or patience to prepare whole food. but the powders offer a concentrated. young Jedi. I think the most valid recommendation would be to take a big helping of casein at the bedtime meal in order to slowly deliver those amino acids to the muscles and to prevent catabolism over that long. I like to make more specific recommendations. Simply eat a lot of food and voila. This pattern is used to better manage insulin. catabolic frenzy called sleep. Hey. soy and maltodextrin. I'm a fan of eating two meals of 50 grams of protein plus 50 grams of high-glycemic carbs at 30 and 90 minutes posttraining. it also swells cells with glycogen (itself anabolic) and frees up Testosterone to do its own anabolic work. Yes. After a workout. Unlike Testosterone. No. add some cottage cheese. anti-catabolic casein. the proteins were added to calorie restricted diets. While we're at it. Let's just say that if you can smell gas in a smoke-filled strip club. Your thoughts. especially later in the day. the casein group slightly outgrew the other groups in upper arm muscle. source of protein. it's bad! (Oddly enough. muscle growth! But there's a catch: eat sugar to get this insulin spike and you'll also be providing substrate for lipogenesis (fat building). why not whey and casein together? Well. I just don't think oxidation would increase with whey because the intramuscular demands for aminos are just too great. So. I'd suggest adding your whey supplement as a post-workout dose and your casein supplement as your pre-bedtime meal. but once you throw them into a meal the GI of the individual food no longer matters. blood amino acid levels with whey were still greater than casein after two hours. It's kind of like the glycemic index thing. I don't wanna piss you off since you're about 7 inches taller and 40 pounds heavier than me. big fella. In 1997. if you eat some other protein meal. Who knows. The quick rise in amino acid concentrations also causes oxidation rates to increase so quickly that no overall increase in protein accretion is seen. This. Remember that in the study. in addition to increasing amino acid concentrations? Whey. So by taking a big dose of whey immediately after the workout. So. I take in about 50 grams of casein (cottage cheese) with a bunch of carbs. So. perhaps you wouldn't get the best of both worlds. Then. John? So you're telling me you don't want to decrease catabolism after a workout. combining whey and casein might lead to a slowing of whey absorption. As Lonnie pointed out earlier. I know that in the study there was more protein oxidation with whey. Then at the two hour mark. I mix up a 50 gram whey shake and bring it to the gym with me. the research on absorption and metabolism has only looked at individual protein types and not at combos. It's been demonstrated to be just the opposite. providing a decrease in catabolism. A faster absorption rate isn't going to equate to more muscle. Researchers think that after a workout catabolism can be prevented and anabolism induced with a hearty portion of quickly delivered amino acids. Again. until further research sheds some light on this question. but the worst.time due to the fact that you could get some pre-bedtime anabolism in addition to all this overnight anti-catabolism. CW: Why only use whey as your post-workout meal. after the workout. the physiology is just different. about 60 to 90 minutes later. I guess I won't have to squash you after all. This could be the case with protein combinations. means that whey should be ingested immediately after the workout due to its really fast absorption rates. Fair enough? CW: Sounds good to me. You need to slow the digestion rate down with whey. you're set up for the day. Immediately after my training I drink it down. JB: Whoa. Individual food GI's can be determined. The next question is. and an increase in anabolism. reaching levels higher than casein can. to me. Personally. that you need that infusion of aminos that whey can give right after the workout. As you know. for now. JB: So you wanna hug? CW: Next topic please! . In this case you'd be missing out on some of the protein synthesis that you could get otherwise. I'm just spankin' the theoretical monkey here. the slow absorption wouldn't really hinder anything. The whey by itself for post-workout does make more sense. I really think. You could also throw in some whey with the cottage cheese. Biolo showed that an immediate rise in plasma amino acids after exercise was more anabolic than when ingested sometime later. Since it's not directly post-workout time anymore. Like the previous study demonstrated. but I'm not sure I agree with you. but I'm not so certain it would pan out that way. but the protein wasn't given after a workout. though. though. why not have a slow releasing protein post-workout? It provides a steady amount of amino acids. you're going to flood the body with aminos and this rise will stay up for about two hours. when you put it in the terms of the anabolic response. amino acid concentrations return to baseline too quickly with whey. by itself is a big pain in the ass! Having to continually ingest 30 to 40 grams every couple of hours sucks. Chill guys! Don't forget the eggs. Now that I've vented. the only time when the kidneys have been damaged or even stressed to a significant degree was in patients experiencing renal failure or severe kidney damage. there are a few things that should be noted in terms of a high-protein intake. After the workout. I think the recommendations in Cy's protein article about eating more than usual after the workout are very reasonable. I like to have three really big protein meals a day of about 80 to 100 grams and three smaller protein meals of about 30 to 50 grams. dairy. Unfortunately. and fish. I'm not an elderly woman. not just after training. Bottom line: Mix it up! Remember. chicken. when talking about increases in protein intake. in which case you won't last very long in this game anyway. always make sure you're consuming enough water since a high-protein intake can potentially cause dehydration. but the amount to cause such problems would be completely absurd. one study does not a fact make! Well. Also. post-workout (the whey shake plus the cottage cheese meal). each meal includes some low GI carbs as well as healthy fats. there was no similar effect! And even if there was. but I'm not sure if 50% of the day's intake is necessary. so I like to provide building blocks all day long. I like eating protein and I'm gonna be chowing down on protein all day long. as a researcher buddy of mine said. Now. unless you're a big bag of laziness. for older lifters and women. Just to be safe. I know I should eat a lot of protein. . after a workout. do you guys have any axes to grind with some of the protein theories out there? CW: As far as axes. but won't that cause kidney damage?" As Lonnie pointed out earlier. I do this because sometimes big protein doses can force protein synthesis. When this one study was repeated in young women. In this case. This puts me at about 30% post-workout. And at the recommendation of an expert. lean beef. I think that this sport. This can probably be prevented if you use a daily multivitamin or some type of MRP. JB: Before we close. so give it what it wants. Bullshit! This is based on a study that showed elderly women (68 years old) had better overall protein gains with 80% of their protein consumed in one meal. as it could lead to a depletion of both blood and bone calcium. as Lonnie mentioned earlier.Cutting Through The Nonsense JB: At this point. it may be possible to stress the kidneys in normal humans. These are real foods with all sorts of benefits that supersede the arguably marginal benefits of eating nothing by casein or whey. I've got one final beef. and bedtime are the big protein feasts. In addition. no doubt. I really don't have any other beefs (no pun intended) to settle. protein synthesis is up for about 24 hours. it's important to consume additional calcium if eating a high protein diet. many people still respond with "Yeah. However. you'll be eating five or more meals per day every two or three hours. So perhaps in the morning or before bed we can coax the body to start a little synthesis. Oh yeah. bodybuilding extremists are very eager to take things to the next level. the body wants aminos. Breakfast. attracts extreme personalities. by nature. Personally. the only thing that angers me in terms of protein intake is the misconception of kidney damage. I'd like to talk about some of the craziness that's out there concerning protein manipulation. Some writers have been recommending eating minimal protein for most meals and eating most of your protein (like 60% or more) in one big nitrogen rich feast. something as simple as one expert saying casein is better than whey can cause such a row that these guys will be sprinkling their whey protein into the Pacific Ocean as if the protein was the cremated ashes of a dearly departed loved one. In the end. .Over those five meals you need to divide your protein intake (not necessarily equally) and eat protein from a variety of sources. Let's close on that note. it's all about balance. utilizing the special properties of whey and casein when appropriate.